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Author Topic: Holy shit Japan....  (Read 70160 times)

Kogut

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #690 on: March 19, 2011, 04:01:19 pm »

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1) Uranium is produced rather in well developed countries (with accident rate lower than China coal mines). 2) It is radioactive so probably there are strict regulations
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Nikov

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #691 on: March 19, 2011, 04:30:05 pm »

Off to the Alternative Energy Thread with this post.

Is the wind over Japan expected to shift to China, such as seasonal storms or anything? I'm wondering if there's any pressing need to contain the radioactive "soot" floating off over the Pacific.
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Phmcw

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #692 on: March 19, 2011, 04:59:33 pm »

Apparently not. If the information we have are correct, even next to the plant, the radio activity never exceeded 3 milisieverts per hours.
Not good for your health but nothing too harmful either. When dissipated onto a large area, the effect on the health should be negligible.
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Starver

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #693 on: March 19, 2011, 06:53:14 pm »

Apparently not. If the information we have are correct, even next to the plant, the radio activity never exceeded 3 milisieverts per hours.
Not good for your health but nothing too harmful either. When dissipated onto a large area, the effect on the health should be negligible.
I've seen/heard/read very little commentary on this incident where the difference between radioactivity and radioactive isotopes is in any way taken account of.

It's possible that an incident could 'flash' the immediate area with radiation, but have no radionuclides shoved out into the environment and so are immediately afterwards safe, and it's also possible that an incident only consists of plumes of 'lesser' radioactive elements like iodine that then get into the environment and cause extreme long-term damage.

Japan, Chernobyl, 3MI, Windscale, all kinds of other previous nuclear incidents that have had hardly any reporting and indeed all those nuclear tests (atmospheric, surface or subterranean) or attacks (H+N) have caused some or none of one and some or all of the other, but the issue at hand is the proportion, and in the case of the nucleotide release, what types and where they ended up.

With the possible exception of the guys doing shifts in the control room, and those dumping water on the incident, direct radiation isn't going to be a problem to anyone.  And the 3 mSv/h is what they're mostly concerned about, but if low-level radiating isotopes get into the environment in sufficient quantities, they can provide a lot less than 3 mSv/h wherever they land, but do so for years and years and years, rather than the (at most) few days of exposure that those dealing with the incident would have had their <3 mSv/h exposure in.

So, that opens the possibility of this being a decent and unproblematic immediate radiation risk, yet still something Chernobyl-like in the long-term.  I don't believe it will be anything like as bad, to be honest, but with no-one actually differentiating the risks I can only imagine the true situation and the wiggle-room in the possible outcomes that this gives engenders huge uncertainties in my own estimates of what will happen.


The other thing I need to remember to ask a colleague is: why do BWRs not have downward-inserting control-rods?  It just seems so logical that gravity-assisted (not to mention also sprungs and sometimes motor-driven as well) insertion of neutron-poisoning material is the way it happens, so why does the BWR design involved at this site apparently not have this simple fail-safe?  Even a 40yo reactor should have been built with this knowledge, even if it wasn't as sophisticated as an electro-magnet supported scram-systems that could kick in automatically (presumably because that might be too easily triggered in the event of quakes that wouldn't affect the reactor, especially as it this very large one they just had wasn't even directly the cause of this incident, just a factor).  Or has my experience and learning about PWRs made me forget some other vital aspect of design priority..?
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olemars

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #694 on: March 19, 2011, 07:15:49 pm »


The other thing I need to remember to ask a colleague is: why do BWRs not have downward-inserting control-rods?  It just seems so logical that gravity-assisted (not to mention also sprungs and sometimes motor-driven as well) insertion of neutron-poisoning material is the way it happens, so why does the BWR design involved at this site apparently not have this simple fail-safe?  Even a 40yo reactor should have been built with this knowledge, even if it wasn't as sophisticated as an electro-magnet supported scram-systems that could kick in automatically (presumably because that might be too easily triggered in the event of quakes that wouldn't affect the reactor, especially as it this very large one they just had wasn't even directly the cause of this incident, just a factor).  Or has my experience and learning about PWRs made me forget some other vital aspect of design priority..?

Not sure I get you, the control rods were correctly actuated and inserted the moment the accelerometers detected the quake, just as they were meant to. I'm not 100% sure why they are at the bottom of the core, but all BWR reactors are like that. Water circulates through the bottom of the core and up so they might not want the rods to go against the flow. Plus, at the top there's superheated steam which might not be too healthy for the material.
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Nikov

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #695 on: March 19, 2011, 07:29:47 pm »


The other thing I need to remember to ask a colleague is: why do BWRs not have downward-inserting control-rods?  It just seems so logical that gravity-assisted (not to mention also sprungs and sometimes motor-driven as well) insertion of neutron-poisoning material is the way it happens, so why does the BWR design involved at this site apparently not have this simple fail-safe?  Even a 40yo reactor should have been built with this knowledge, even if it wasn't as sophisticated as an electro-magnet supported scram-systems that could kick in automatically (presumably because that might be too easily triggered in the event of quakes that wouldn't affect the reactor, especially as it this very large one they just had wasn't even directly the cause of this incident, just a factor).  Or has my experience and learning about PWRs made me forget some other vital aspect of design priority..?

Not sure I get you, the control rods were correctly actuated and inserted the moment the accelerometers detected the quake, just as they were meant to. I'm not 100% sure why they are at the bottom of the core, but all BWR reactors are like that. Water circulates through the bottom of the core and up so they might not want the rods to go against the flow. Plus, at the top there's superheated steam which might not be too healthy for the material.

I read in US reactors the rods are held in place by electromagnets, and any power loss causes them to drop out. I think the lesson going forward is to have self-scramming reactors in the event of electrical failures, where the rods actually disperse enough to no longer be a critical mass. As I understand the reactor is scrammed but still producing heat. Frankly that doesn't sound right at all. Am I missing something?
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olemars

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #696 on: March 19, 2011, 07:43:49 pm »

The BWR control rods are hydraulically actuated, but I'm pretty sure they will trigger in case of power loss as a failsafe.

Scramming stops the fission, but fission products (radioactive waste) generate a lot of heat through radioactive decay for some time. The core has to be cooled for at least 10 days before it's considered "cold", spent fuel rods are cooled for up to 3 years in a big pool of water before they're considered safe enough for processing. A spent fuel rod right out of the reactor will kill you in a minute through radiation if you hang around near it.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 07:47:16 pm by olemars »
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Starver

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #697 on: March 19, 2011, 08:05:24 pm »

Not sure I get you, the control rods were correctly actuated and inserted the moment the accelerometers detected the quake, just as they were meant to.
I know everything worked Ok (at least at that stage of the game, prior to the coolant pumping failures), but when I first saw graphics from the likes of the BBC and saw that they had the control rods inserting upwards, I thought that was wrong.  So I checked with one who knows a bit more about it than I, and got told that was how they're built.  But I forgot to ask why...

Must have been the shock.


Anyway, the Libya NFZ has sort of swamped the news around these parts, now, anything new about Japan suitable for this thread?  Last thing I saw was about a survivor being found after 8 days, which sort of damages my previous prediction that virtually all survivors now only had the problems of weather and supplies and eventually putting their lives back together to contend with.  This one still had to be discovered.

(I'm trying to avoid feeling a bit mawkish by actively going beyond the front page of the news web-sites looking for the latest info, but just realised that asking for such info to be posted here is effectively doing the same thing.  Apologies, and feel free to ignore me on that point.)
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Nikov

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #698 on: March 19, 2011, 08:31:30 pm »

The BWR control rods are hydraulically actuated, but I'm pretty sure they will trigger in case of power loss as a failsafe.

Scramming stops the fission, but fission products (radioactive waste) generate a lot of heat through radioactive decay for some time. The core has to be cooled for at least 10 days before it's considered "cold", spent fuel rods are cooled for up to 3 years in a big pool of water before they're considered safe enough for processing. A spent fuel rod right out of the reactor will kill you in a minute through radiation if you hang around near it.

I read the same about them using hydraulic rams. It sounded too complex for something that absolutely has to work, however.

So a rod right out of the reactor is emitting radiation at a higher level than one that never went into the reactor for days, not minutes? Interesting. I didn't realize it took so long to stop the accelerated decay. I was under the impression once you put a critical mass together, it could be interrupted by breaking it apart and the rods would be like dimming embers, not a huge glowing bar of steel searing the eyes with white heat and internal fire that burns for a fortnight. It makes sense now that I think about it, although I'm still not sure why the uranium continues to decay at a heightened rate once it is out of a critical mass. Is it simply not a sustainable chain reaction and is burning itself out? Does the actual level of heat in the uranium affect the rate of decay? I previously thought they were cooling the rods simply to prevent them from melting, but from what you say, it sounds more like they're cooling them to slow the reaction.

Also, any of you with Netflix should grab K-19 Widowmaker. Great nuclear accident movie. Harrison Ford. Communists. Tense sort of military history / science fiction suspense with a dash of patriotism but not overblown.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

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Starver

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #699 on: March 19, 2011, 09:50:16 pm »

So a rod right out of the reactor is emitting radiation at a higher level than one that never went into the reactor for days, not minutes?
Apart from anything else, within the bounds of the fuel cladding are now various fission products.  Prior to being exposed to the reactor's existing radiation (i.e. proximity to enriched fuel), there would largely have only been spontaneous fission events occurring (not sparked off from a suitably slow neutron impacting on a fissionable 235U nucleus, just 235 or 238 breaking up on their own).  After exposure to the reactor core, you've got a general excess of pre-induced fission making the neutrons whiz around, hitting the  235U nuclei and sparking off more neutrons, plus a whole host of shorter-lived isotopes doing their own spontaneous/induced fissioning and re-radiating of the full spectrum of radiation.  (Nucleonic and electromagnetic.)

(There have been a number of 'natural uranium reactors' discovered that because of being richer in 235U than today, and with water flowing through to slow down the emitted neutrons to allow them to hit these other nuclei properly, were basically more radioactive than they should have been, and today are actually less rich in 235U than they should be, having basically undergone a slow depletion over many thousands of years, back at the point in deep history when they were 'fizzing away'.)


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...once you put a critical mass together...
Just want to say that while "critical" is the point at which a chain-reaction is just self-sustaining, and that when nuclear bombs go off that's "supercritical", the public perception about "going critical" is that this is the latter situation, so I tend not to use that term.  Thinking back, this might have coloured some previous posts I made on the subject in response to some sort of "But it could go critical!" statement.


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Does the actual level of heat in the uranium affect the rate of decay?
Not the natural rate of decay.  Temperature basically does not affect a nucleus's natural tendency to spontaneously undergo fission.  The fact that the uranium is hot would, though, be indicative that there is induced fission going on (neutron-spray landing on fissionable atoms, sending more neutron spray around the material), so there is a kind of causal connection, but not heat->decay, more like previous_decay => heat + more_decay.

Interestingly, neutrons emitted by hot fuel, hitting fissionable atoms of hot fuel, are actually less likely to spark fission (at least in the materials I'm used to, I hesitate to generalise this across the whole periodic table).  This is partly due to the atoms being slightly further apart (thermal expansion) and partly because you get faster neutrons from 'hotter' atoms (though temperature is really a moot point at the atomic level, to be picky) which for various reasons don't get to induce so many new fission events (i.e. over and above those that might happen naturally from spontaneous fission) and thus controlled or run-away chain reactions aren't as predominant.

Decay definitely produces heat, but heat itself actually squelches induced fission a bit.  Not enough to be considered a good negative feedback method, when there's so much going on in a critical or supercritical mass.

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I previously thought they were cooling the rods simply to prevent them from melting, but from what you say, it sounds more like they're cooling them to slow the reaction.
I'd still say they were stopping them from melting.  The mechanism of the natural reactors, that I mentioned early on, was basically that ground-water slowed the faster neutrons, let them strike more of the (at that time, more abundant) 235U nuclei, release some energy, spark some more neutrons, etc.  But as more energy was released, the ground-water would evaporate and less of the neutrons would slow, so the reaction slowed.  At least until more water seeped back into the rock again.  But it's always hard to say that this was therefore a good negative feedback method, as this was a happenstance occurance a couple of billion years ago, and had it gone differently it could have looked just like an unenriched ore bed or like an area composed of rocks of a completely different nature, but which were the result of a runaway reaction that only didn't manage to extinguish our distant ancestry because if it had, we wouldn't have been here to know of it.


*The following was spoilered, but is now out of context...*
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Hey, lets drop this really really hot stuff into cold water! What could go wrong?

When trying to water down certain hydrophilic acids, it is best practice to add the acid to the water rather than the water to the acid.  The analogy always presented to me is that if you have a cell full of a whole bunch of hungry prisoners, chucking a few loaves of bread in will cause fights until you can get all of them satisfied, whereas leading the prisoners into the room full of bread is a lot less problematic.  I'm not saying that this has anything to do with the reasoning behind the Chernobyl designers, but it shows a counter-example where the same thinking as was incorrectly made here may be more appropriate.


(It's a bit late, and something is niggling away at my mind that I've miswritten something , up there somewhere.  But I can't find what it is.  It could just be that while shuffling my text I've edited a paragraph in at the wrong place, though, rather than any actual mis-fact or having missed-out/incorrectly inserted the word "not" somewhere... :) )
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Nikov

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #700 on: March 19, 2011, 10:37:24 pm »

Starver, you deserve a medal.

A drumroll, please.

Spoiler: Barumumumumumumum... (click to show/hide)

That was an excellent post.
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Zrk2

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #701 on: March 20, 2011, 12:24:08 am »

Shit eh? I'm too tired to make sense of this, but I understand apparently shit is less bad for the immediate future. /dumbs down conversation
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Kogut

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #702 on: March 20, 2011, 02:17:46 am »

It's possible that an incident could 'flash' the immediate area with radiation, but have no radionuclides shoved out into the environment and so are immediately afterwards safe, and it's also possible that an incident only consists of plumes of 'lesser' radioactive elements like iodine that then get into the environment and cause extreme long-term damage.

Fortunately part of them have short half life (Iodine-131: 8 days).
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Starver

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #703 on: March 20, 2011, 04:44:35 pm »

Fortunately part of them have short half life (Iodine-131: 8 days).
Bad wording on my part.  Everyone hears about Iodine, but there are ones that can give longer term damage.  I was tired, please excuse me. :)


(Hey, it just occurred to me.  Radioactive spinach.  It'd make you into something like The Hulk and Popeye combined!)
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Zrk2

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #704 on: March 20, 2011, 09:28:17 pm »

Uh, no. The radiation was about 1 100th of what you get from a catscan. All these reports of the radiation neglect that the amount of radiation one encounters naturally makes these level actually negligible.
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