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[GlyphGryph]

Solar also isn't nearly as green as people think it is - current tech relies on lots of rare resources and extensive mining operations for both the panels and batteries, and the lifetime of a solar cell last I looked wasn't terribly great (10 years or something). For the pollution it generates compared to the power it generates, the newest Nuclear plants like breeder reactors or whatever they're calling new ones now (I've heard of pebble-beds?) might actually be better (though I have no numbers either way).

Regardless, its tech that changes rapidly and what little I know is probably out of date.

[PTTG??]

Ideally, we would be building both.

So we can have both fragile power plants AND splotches of uninhabitable terrain? My point is that when a windmill fails critically, the blades fall off and hit somebody. When a nuclear power plant fails critically, it dirty-bombs everywhere downwind.

Orbital solar is a neat idea, but I did the math and it miiiiight break even. The big unknown is the lifetime of the solar panels, since that multiplies the to-orbit costs. If we had a cheap launch solution, it'd be fantastic. Oh, it does need huge rectennas on earth, but these are simple and can be built over land being used for other purposes, such as farming.

That's why I like Geothermal. It just sits there and gives you electricity.

But I'm telling you, no matter if the fairy of nuclear energy herself says that a new power plant design is totally safe, you will not be able to find a town in the world that'll let you build it.

[Ampersand]

Solar does not imply solar cells. For example, solar concentration plants that use mirrors to heat sodium to melting point, storing the energy as heat, which is in turn used to generate electricity. No batteries required as the energy is stored as heat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower

[RedKing]

I'm not even going to pretend to be a nuclear engineer here. But luckily, I have a buddy who is one (and a former nuke officer on a submarine to boot). His opinion is that, while serious, this isn't a Chernobyl-style "OMG GO BOOM and make the surrounding area uninhabitable and fit only for FPS shooter environments" kind of scenario. He sort of tried to explain the mechanics of why, but it was like explaining non-Euclidean geometry to my dog. (or me, for that matter...)

Mostly it seemed to come down to the fact that because it's a BWR (boiling water reactor), rather than a PWR (pressurized water reactor) as most Western reactors are, it was more fault-tolerant and operated at lower temperatures and pressures.

[PTTG??]

Yes, it's not going to be as bad as Chernobyl, but that's not saying much. Nobody's using that plant ever again, and the region around it will probably not be used for decades.

[Duke 2.0]

 The plants were gonna be decommissioned this year anyway, so the point of them never being used again is moot. This goes the same for the area around it, the residents will have to endure the same increased risk of death by radiation as Chicago.

[olemars]

The plants were gonna be decommissioned this year anyway, so the point of them never being used again is moot. This goes the same for the area around it, the residents will have to endure the same increased risk of death by radiation as Chicago.

Not true. Reactor 1 was originally planned for decomission, but got a 10 year extension in february. The rest of the plant was not planned to be decommissioned, they were going to install two additional reactors.

Even so, it's a completely different task to decomission a reactor that was stopped regularly, and one where the fuel is a lump of uranium oxide at the bottom. It'll take a while before they can even start to think about decomissioning the ruined reactors as well.

[Nadaka]

Solar also isn't nearly as green as people think it is - current tech relies on lots of rare resources and extensive mining operations for both the panels and batteries, and the lifetime of a solar cell last I looked wasn't terribly great (10 years or something). For the pollution it generates compared to the power it generates, the newest Nuclear plants like breeder reactors or whatever they're calling new ones now (I've heard of pebble-beds?) might actually be better (though I have no numbers either way).

Regardless, its tech that changes rapidly and what little I know is probably out of date.

This is why I suggested solar thermal plants. It doesn't require any exotic materials and can produce power 24/7. It uses mirrored reflectors to heat oil, molten salt or another high heat capacity material with a high boiling point. This material is stored in an underground insulated chamber and used to heat a conventional boiler to run a conventional turbine. Existing experimental models have already been built and they can at least handle overnight power production.

So we can have both fragile power plants AND splotches of uninhabitable terrain? My point is that when a windmill fails critically, the blades fall off and hit somebody. When a nuclear power plant fails critically, it dirty-bombs everywhere downwind.

Orbital solar is a neat idea, but I did the math and it miiiiight break even. The big unknown is the lifetime of the solar panels, since that multiplies the to-orbit costs. If we had a cheap launch solution, it'd be fantastic.

But I'm telling you, no matter if the fairy of nuclear energy herself says that a new power plant design is totally safe, you will not be able to find a town in the world that'll let you build it.

A: So we don't put all our eggs in one basket.

B: With modern feeder/reactors we can actually consume "spent" nuclear fuel and eliminate the hazard of storing much of the worlds existing nuclear "waste".

And no, we are not looking at splotches of uninhabitable terrain. Chernobyl was a dramatic exception, and even that only killed a couple hundred people. Meltdown related health hazards are grossly exaggerated. And as the events in japan show, it takes a ridiculously powerful hit to get one to go there for a modern reactor. Some of the next generation reactor designs wouldn't be affected even by a total loss of coolant.

But you are right, no one is going to allow anything that even sounds "nukyular" anywhere anymore.

[Nikov]

Guys, make a new (and yet old, how very old...) thread to discuss the future of electrical generation.

[PTTG??]

Guys, make a new (and yet old, how very old...) thread to discuss the future of electrical generation.

Quite right. I'll just say that the salt solar sounds interesting.

Anyone seen this yet?

[Darvi]

Guys, make a new (and yet old, how very old...) thread to discuss the future of electrical generation.

*whistles innocently*

[Erk]

Great Armok, is this really what everyone in North America is thinking about?

The chances of the reactor causing any serious damage are fairly trivial at this juncture. In the scheme of things, there are far bigger things to be worried about. In a worst case scenario, a small region of fukushima will be damaged; those on site don't feel this is a great risk, nor do international experts looking at the situation. The only people making a fuss over it are the media, who frankly know shit-all.

What is a serious issue right now is that people are stranded in schools inside tsunami zones, unable to get food, water, sanitation, and medical attention until the SDF can get people in. What is a serious issue right now are the number of people who have been unable to alert their families of their status because they are either out of cell service, unconscious, or dead.

The rather slim chance that there might be a smallish reactor leak in a small area of the affected region is getting far too much attention.

Sincerely,
someone waiting to hear from loved ones.

[RedKing]

I have to say I've actually been shocked to see comments like "We don't need to send help to Japan, because they can handle this themselves. They prepare for this sort of thing all the time."

Apparently, people are missing the part where this is the biggest earthquake in Japan's recorded history. Y'know what, we prepare for hurricanes down here all the time too. Doesn't mean "we don't need help" when one like Katrina or Floyd hits.

Yeah, the situation in Japan is just mind-boggling. The amount of infrastructure that has been destroyed is big, but the amount that is still standing but structurally unsound, and is going to have to be demolished and replaced is just mind-boggling. I mean, you get this feeling that Japan's economy is going to be fundamentally transformed as the prime focus of the country for the next few years (at minimum) is going to be the reconstruction effort. Good time to buy stock in Japanese construction companies (once the Nikkei stops freaking out), because they're going to be busy as shit for years.

[Nikov]

The reactor has a narrative people can follow, which is why it is being discussed. Rescue operations are underway by the U.S. Navy, SDF and civilian agencies, but being countless stories which are often not reported, it is difficult to follow them. Furthermore people are concerned, quite falsely, that the meltdown might pose a radiological hazard to the west coast. Do understand you have our full sympathy and best hopes.

Meanwhile, 17 U.S. military personnel involved in helicopter relief missions were found to have been exposed to low levels of radiation after the flew back from the devastated coast to the USS Ronald Reagan, an aircraft carrier about 100 miles offshore.

U.S. officials said the exposure level was roughly equal to one month's normal exposure to natural background radiation, and the 17 were declared contamination-free after scrubbing with soap and water.

As a precaution, the U.S. said the carrier and other 7th Fleet ships involved in relief efforts had shifted to another area.

I hadn't considered it before, but the U.S. Navy's carrier fleet is uniquely suited for rescue operations in a radiological hazard area. I'm glad two Nimitz carriers are providing lift, and have read numerous support ships are nearby too. 2000 calorie combat rations will be a welcome change from noodle cups, and the ship's doctors are well trained for radiation cases, should that be nessicary.

[Nadaka]

Construction may not be as busy as you think.

They are still suffering from a housing bubble burst.

The only person I know in Japan is an architect and she has been wanting to change careers because there has been near zero work.