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Author Topic: Holy shit Japan....  (Read 70833 times)

Tellemurius

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #630 on: March 17, 2011, 04:27:20 pm »

50 rads = .5 millisieverts

Il Palazzo

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #631 on: March 17, 2011, 04:41:52 pm »

Incorrect.

1 rad = 10 miligrays
1 rem = 10 milisevierts

0.5 mSv = 0.05 rem

rad & rem are not imperial, but CGS, which is also metric.
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Tellemurius

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #632 on: March 17, 2011, 04:44:30 pm »

Rad and rem is the only one for imperial as Gray is for metric.

Starver

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #633 on: March 17, 2011, 04:45:13 pm »

Going back to the issue of news reports, I know it's unwieldy, but even interviewed experts are failing to distinguish between releases of radiation and releases of radionuclides.

There are different issues with each.  When it comes to the people working on site, if there's an actual radiation spike you still need to be behind as much concrete (or at as far a distance) as you can manage given your job.  The civilian population and all those not needed to be on site are almost certainly going to be safe due to distance.  And once the immediate crisis is over, with everything nicely settled (or entombed in concrete[1]) the evacuation and exclusion can be lifted and there are no more problems[2].

The issue of the actual, physical isotopes being spread around is another case.  In turn emitting all the different types of actual radiation, in various quantities, proximity alone isn't an issue and you can protect yourself with pretty much any NBC-suitable suit/vehicle/building from direct on-skin and in-lung exposure to dangerous particulates and gasses (although that doesn't help civvies), but the quantities flying around shouldn't be anything like as much of a problem as being within a few tens of metres of a naked nuclear pile, like as from the perspective of those firefighters at Chernobyl.  Instead, the problem is the particles getting onto skin, into the lungs and generally stuck on or in the human (and wildlife!) body.  Whatever the particles are, and whatever their radiation (even alpha, which famously gets stopped by a good sheet of paper or two) they can then directly and unobstructively give an extended dose of radiation to the cells they are adhered to, or near, as increasing numbers of them do what comes natural and decay to various other isotopes which may or may not have chance to further decay, before becoming stable.  And that's not even including the chemical effects of the heavy metal and other elements (and compounds thereof) that this dust or gas is at various stages of its decay cycle.


The fact that the current effort appears to be concentrating on keeping things cool means that they are most likely working towards minimising the potential for radionuclide emission, although they will of course be displacing some in their steam-generating process.  Also that they're still working towards cooling.  There's nothing known (other than directing more radiation at a sample, to change the nucleus's internal configuration) that will speed up or slow down radiation emission and decay.  Which is why various isotope dating techniques are (for suitable samples of historic materials) very good, and which is why we know that nuclear waste products are going to have to be stored for so-many hundred or thousand years.

Excessive heating the materials will not cause (on its own) increased radiation emission, although material disbursement due to the burning of the material (and/or its otherwise mundane casing) or in a particularly badly-designed container the pooling of melted fuel into a larger unit would be a problem.



The most recent bugbear report I've been hearing is today is "If the ponds dry out, the spent fuel rods will emit more radiation".  The real problem is most likely about their burning and releasing isotope-laden oxides into the air, not directly irradiating the surroundings more.  Direct radiation exposure, given some very basic assumptions about the way that storage is laid out, wouldn't be much of an issue to the surrounds anyway, as long as current or future workers weren't in the habit of peeking over the top of the pond walls.  (Arguably that wouldn't be something you could say about the pilots of the water-dumping pilots, but I suspect they've been given heights to work from where the situation on/in the ground is within limits that are prepared to be risked exposure to.  This might mean they're not as efficient at delivering their cooling water, of course.)


I think that as long as the authorities do manage to prevent a 'burning stack' of fuel rods (within either reactors or ponds, and last I heard the only actual fires were ones generally around the building, although there were naturally concerns about the spent-fuel pools), the biggest danger to the population in the greater "stay in or get out" zone, and possibly even significantly within the evacuation zone, is going to be the chill winds, snow and general lack of supplies.  Including fuel for the infrastructure which would normally bring the supplies that exist in the other parts of the nation into the entire tsunami-hit zone, assuming they don't still have problems with debris-blocked highways and other rescue effort issues.


However, I have made a few assumptions, above.  It's so hard to get good facts, given the mix-up of details that this post was initially all about, various different news organisations relaying possibly spurious facts from similar mis-understandings or sheer hype, or possibly even believing unwarranted down-playing by those who are supposed to pass on details!  Please treat this as a general exposition, not in any way authoritative of the true situation on the ground.


[1] A bad choice, in general, because of the lack of ability to monitor and deal with the situation at later leisure.  OTOH, the 'leaky sarcophagus' of Chernobyl might be considered a strange way of doing it too.  I think the thought process there was that they were keeping people out of the area, anyway, so they'd allow it to cool itself by air blowing through it.

[2] Yes, high radiation levels could make otherwise safe materials in the area radioactive in their own right.  But compared to the radionuclide problem this would really be just like a few more cosmic rays striking down upon the Earth's atmosphere and ground.
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Tellemurius

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #634 on: March 17, 2011, 04:48:54 pm »

Thats why they wash their suits down to remove the particles

Starver

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #635 on: March 17, 2011, 05:33:19 pm »

Thats why they wash their suits down to remove the particles
Indeed.  Did I forget that?  I think I was concentrating on the differing problems, not the differing solutions.
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Nikov

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #636 on: March 17, 2011, 09:43:47 pm »

Yet another argument for obtuse fraction-based measurement systems. News people confuse a milligram and a microgram. They never confuse a ton and an ounce. Unless they're used to metric...
So uh... if you wanted to say 0.5 millisieverts in imperial measures, how would you go about it?

One twentieth of an Urist. Also I was kidding.

Wines that are red,
And Prussian blue,
Get rid of strontium,
And caesium too.


You like that? I wrote it myself a few years ago. Nuclear incident survival memonic.
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I should probably have my head checked, because I find myself in complete agreement with Nikov.

Tellemurius

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #637 on: March 18, 2011, 01:46:29 am »

Alright good news, Reuters report that firetrucks are in Iwaki City transferring to the Fukushima Plant

olemars

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #638 on: March 18, 2011, 06:51:58 am »

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DrPoo

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #639 on: March 18, 2011, 07:52:38 am »

[offensive comment removed]
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 04:06:43 pm by ThreeToe »
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Tellemurius

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #640 on: March 18, 2011, 09:11:49 am »

Its the wrath of Armok!
Soon this universe will be wiped clean, and a new will unfold, bow to great Armok!

A little more on-topic: I saw the tsunami live, two little japanese guys running on a field, with a flood of flaming debris and mud chasing in on them, and at last, they get hit by a house or something and dies.. mildly amusing, but i also feel sorry for them. (Im going to hell), my condolecence(did i spell that right?) to the Japanese Bay12'ers, they families, and their losses.
wth.........

Il Palazzo

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #641 on: March 18, 2011, 09:56:06 am »

Not cool, DrPoo, not cool at all.
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Greiger

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #642 on: March 18, 2011, 10:16:29 am »

People deal with tragedy in different ways.  Some folks panic running through their head ways to help even when it's physically impossible, some folks watch quietly in silence, some folks state the obvious in an attempt to do something, and some folks find an odd amusement, presumably using humor to dull the pain.

When 9/11 happened and I was watching it unfold at school I recall actually making a joke on the matter.  A few people in the room even laughed at it.
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Haspen

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #643 on: March 18, 2011, 10:39:40 am »

People deal with tragedy in different ways.  Some folks panic running through their head ways to help even when it's physically impossible, some folks watch quietly in silence, some folks state the obvious in an attempt to do something, and some folks find an odd amusement, presumably using humor to dull the pain.

When 9/11 happened and I was watching it unfold at school I recall actually making a joke on the matter.  A few people in the room even laughed at it.

I was what... 11?

My reaction to videos of plane's slamming into WTC was "Wooow, awesome" >.>
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Ultimuh

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Re: Holy shit Japan....
« Reply #644 on: March 18, 2011, 10:54:38 am »

People deal with tragedy in different ways.  Some folks panic running through their head ways to help even when it's physically impossible, some folks watch quietly in silence, some folks state the obvious in an attempt to do something, and some folks find an odd amusement, presumably using humor to dull the pain.

When 9/11 happened and I was watching it unfold at school I recall actually making a joke on the matter.  A few people in the room even laughed at it.

I was what... 11?

My reaction to videos of plane's slamming into WTC was "Wooow, awesome" >.>


I was in Denmark at that time.
When I saw it in the news, It felt somewhat unreal, as if it was somekind of a dream sequence or something.
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