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Author Topic: What about a good smoke ?  (Read 7894 times)

RasendeTiur

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Re: What about a good smoke ?
« Reply #60 on: March 28, 2011, 03:36:19 am »

I think smoking would be an awesome thing to implement. The way I see it though, it shouldn't be something dwarves do instead of doing other things. The way it is now, dwarves go to statue gardens, diningrooms or other meeting zones when they have no jobs. Smoking could just be another activity for them do partake in when idle, and would cause happy thoughts. It makes for a really good export, but I can see one problem.

 The carrying system as it is now would leave all smoking dwarves practically disabled because of the pipe being carried around in their hands, even when not smoking, or cause them to have to go back and forth to their rooms all the time to pick up smoking gear. One sollution is that dwarves who like smoking would go pick up pipes from finished goods-bins, and carry them around in special pipe-pouches made at the leatherworks or by a clothier. The pouches would work like quivers, and would hold a certain ammount of tobacco and a pipe. Smoking dwarves without pipe-pouches would have to store their pipe in their rooms, causing them to have to go pick them up before having a smoke.  One would then designate an area for smoking, like one would designate a meeting area.

Smoking would generate small ammounts of smoke, maybe toggleable?, and there could exist dwarves not fond of smoking. If they were they to breathe in this smoke, this would cause mild negative thoughts, depending on their grade of dislike. Another way to store pipes would be to designate stockpiles in the smoking areas, where pipes were put after usage and picked up before, but I guess this would be a bit unhygenic, even for dwarves. Tobacco could be stored in a stockpile in the smoking area for the dwarves to pick up before smoking, or in its own room to avoid huge tobaccofires caused by an unlucky spark. Tobacco would be grown on farm plots, and harvested and dried.

(I had been meaning to post in this thread for a while, but when the other one popped up I posted there first, not seeing this one on the front page.)
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Phant

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Re: What about a good smoke ?
« Reply #61 on: March 28, 2011, 11:47:42 pm »

Smoking would generate small ammounts of smoke, maybe toggleable?, and there could exist dwarves not fond of smoking. If they were they to breathe in this smoke, this would cause mild negative thoughts, depending on their grade of dislike. Another way to store pipes would be to designate stockpiles in the smoking areas, where pipes were put after usage and picked up before, but I guess this would be a bit unhygenic, even for dwarves. Tobacco could be stored in a stockpile in the smoking area for the dwarves to pick up before smoking, or in its own room to avoid huge tobaccofires caused by an unlucky spark. Tobacco would be grown on farm plots, and harvested and dried.

(I had been meaning to post in this thread for a while, but when the other one popped up I posted there first, not seeing this one on the front page.)

This is a good point that is made here. Anyone who smokes a pipe or has an acquaintance who does knows that pipe tobacco is quite aromatic. Some people enjoy the smell, others absolutely detest it, and others just don't like a smokey room. Overall, this should make it a more balanced equation, while the pipe smoker obviously would enjoy it, it might cause negative thoughts to others around him.

As for more esoteric things, someone pointed out quite rightly that morphine is a derivative of the opium poppy, and as such isn't just a recreational drug but also a potent painkiller. I don't know if toady would use something so mundane for this, as it would be easy enough to create a DF-world analog, though I do kind of like the idea of elves as 'lotus eater' types. I can easily see goblins using more potent things, especially to enhance their war making capabilities, or even just humans cultivating something like coca or khat to chew.
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Jeoshua

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Re: What about a good smoke ?
« Reply #62 on: March 29, 2011, 02:21:18 am »

You know what'll happen if coca is ever introduced, right?
Someone will definitely weaponize it. I don't wanna see an "enhanced" dragon. please no.
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Dynastia

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Re: What about a good smoke ?
« Reply #63 on: May 04, 2011, 10:52:53 am »

Pipe smoking is VERY dwarfy. With alcohol and a smoking-weed of whatever variety (probably neither tobacco or marijuana, but a mix of fragrant smokable herbs), the only other 'drugs' I could see as fitting into the game well would be medieval anaesthetics (opium, datura, ergot etc.) for the hospital and perhaps some combat-related drugs ; a psychadelic that can induce bezerkergang before combat (like the ancient Germans used), or a sedative to prevent panic and routing (like the ancient Ligurians used).

Another interesting use of drugs would be for longland grass and cave wheat to occassionally culture a poisonous psychadelic mould (ie. ergot in real life) which you don't notice until Urist McTripping throws a cat into a magma pipe and FUN begins.
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Ahrimahn

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Re: What about a good smoke ?
« Reply #64 on: May 04, 2011, 11:09:51 am »

The mouth could be used to carry pipes and other things that you would logically carry in your mouth.

harborpirate

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Re: What about a good smoke ?
« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2011, 12:57:21 pm »

I get real tired about how these smoking threads inevitably drag down into infantile discussions on how "dwarves should be into getting high" or some other such nonsense.

Smoking being a common practice in fantasy seems to be something that originated in the works of Tolkien. Being very fond of that universe, I'd be very much in favor of smoking if it were implemented in the innocent way that Tolkien describes it.

I wouldn't be against substances being able to have effects, which would allow modders to add whatever silly drugs they wish, but I'd rather vanilla not implement drugs, as they are a controversial subject. If that means that dwarves don't smoke by default either (but can if you mod it in), I can live with that.

If smoking is implemented, I'd be very much in favor of the plant names used in the process being custom to DF.
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Bohandas

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Re: What about a good smoke ?
« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2011, 04:59:34 pm »

I get real tired about how these smoking threads inevitably drag down into infantile discussions on how "dwarves should be into getting high" or some other such nonsense.

Smoking being a common practice in fantasy seems to be something that originated in the works of Tolkien. Being very fond of that universe, I'd be very much in favor of smoking if it were implemented in the innocent way that Tolkien describes it.

Drug abous in a fantasy game has a valid literary background too. In many of the Discworld novels focusing on the city of Ankh-Morpork there are numerous refrences to the city's drug problem, especially in regard to a substance known by the street name "slab" which some of the city's trolls are addicted to.
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Mckee

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Re: What about a good smoke ?
« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2011, 06:01:32 pm »

Honestly, this thread has not been submerged in 'OMG, lets add weed maaaaaannnnn.' responses. I think if we're talking about a game that tries to realistically simulate a lot of things, there are questions to be asked about things such as drugs, recreational or otherwise. Personally I wouldn't care eitherway, smoking would be a good addition I feel, with an industry and craft products, as well as negative and positive effects (Either to mood, or indeed long term health effects). If Toady wanted to start adding drug parrallels, be it any of the previously discussed historic examples, I would also not mind, so long as it doesnt dramatically effect the game and turn it into a carefully crafted Columbian drug smuggling simulator.
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Mountain-King

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Re: What about a good smoke ?
« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2011, 07:03:49 pm »

...I'd rather vanilla not implement drugs, as they are a controversial subject. If that means that dwarves don't smoke by default either (but can if you mod it in), I can live with that.
i think it's kind of silly not to put in something like drug use just because it's a controversial subject in real life. dwarf fortress provides players with the ability to do all sorts of questionably moral things. the real question is whether it would adversely effect the atmosphere of the game, which in my opinion it wouldn't.

(unless you meant "a controversial subject" as in "the forums can't agree on whether or not it should be put in," in which case ignore everything i just said.)
If smoking is implemented, I'd be very much in favor of the plant names used in the process being custom to DF.
yeah definitely this though.

i don't know whether toady is planning to add medicine to the game, but if he is, this would be a good thing to put in alongside it.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 07:05:24 pm by Mountain-King »
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drkpaladin

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Re: What about a good smoke ?
« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2011, 11:58:43 pm »

I think this would be good to add in later on when elves join the ranks as a playable faction.  Dwarves are all alcoholics, but elves start smoking everything they find in the forest until they start eating each other and talking to trees.  It explains alot.
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IT 000

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Re: What about a good smoke ?
« Reply #70 on: May 05, 2011, 07:16:27 am »

I've managed to mod in cigars a while ago. They even puff smoke. I'll be posting this on both smoking threads. DFFD download and the Main Thread
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harborpirate

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Re: What about a good smoke ?
« Reply #71 on: May 05, 2011, 09:34:27 am »

I think this would be good to add in later on when elves join the ranks as a playable faction.  Dwarves are all alcoholics, but elves start smoking everything they find in the forest until they start eating each other and talking to trees.  It explains alot.

At this point it has become increasingly hard to tell whether players are joking or actually believe all the community silliness regarding elves.

Given that elves don't appreciate you chopping down trees, would they actually burn dried plant leaves and inhale the smoke?

It makes sense to me that dwarves might smoke, because they seem ambivalent towards natural things. Elves though, I'm not so sure, unless it was some kind of ceremonial thing (absorbing the forest spirit or some such thing).
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Mister Always

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Re: What about a good smoke ?
« Reply #72 on: May 06, 2011, 01:32:36 pm »

I'm not sure if "ambivalent" is the right word. By now, I think they mostly clear-cut regions because FUCK ELVES.

And because they need beds and barrels and shit, 'course.
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sockless

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Re: What about a good smoke ?
« Reply #73 on: May 07, 2011, 02:42:46 am »

The mouth could be used to carry pipes and other things that you would logically carry in your mouth.

What else do you logically carry in your mouth eh?

I'm not sure if "ambivalent" is the right word. By now, I think they mostly clear-cut regions because FUCK ELVES.

And because they need beds and barrels and shit, 'course.

Please, don't swear, it's not against the rules but it's crude and makes you look like a moron. Dwarves don't hate elves, players do, but the two often seem to get confused. I personally have never had a problem with elves, but that's because IIRC elven diplomats are broken.




I personally don't think that controversy is a good reason to not include smoking. Look at Fallout, it contains prostitution, sex, drugs, alcohol, gore, swearing, violence, the list goes on; but it is a good game. Mafia II also contains sex, drugs, alcohol, swearing, violence and discrimination. These games are commercial games, and they don't worry about controversy, but they are the only ones that really should, since the media could kick up a shitstorm about it (like in Modern Warfare 2). The other reason not to add these things in is because of ratings, but DF doesn't have to worry about ratings, since it isn't sold.

Also, if drugs get added into the game, it will probably be in such a way that it is by no means necessary to actually use drugs in the game. My model on page 2 is an example of how this could be done.

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Given that elves don't appreciate you chopping down trees, would they actually burn dried plant leaves and inhale the smoke?

Yes, they probably would. Elves themselves use wood for everything, it's just that they do it the right way.

In my opinion, the Elves are like the Maori (native New Zealanders). The Maori have no objection to deforestation, in fact they did a lot of it, but they didn't particularly like the Europeans doing it, that it because they would always pray to Tane, the forest god, before cutting them down. There's a myth that goes like this:

Quote
Rata was in the forest wandering about wondering what to do about retrieving the  body of his father who had recently died when he decided he would chop down a  tree and build a waka.

He selected a Totara, felled it, and went home planning to return in the morning  to begin building the waka. When he did return he found the tree wasnt lying on  the ground as he'd left it but standing as if it had never been felled.
He chopped the tree down again this time trimming the trunk and removing the  bark and and went home with the same result when he returned the next day.

He chopped the tree down a third time, this time trimming and shaping the tree  and scooping out the inside and decided to sneak back during the night to see  what was happening.

When he approached the tree in the dark he saw to his amazement that birds and  insects were reassembling the tree to return it to its original state.

Rata apologised for chopping down the Totara and explained why he was doing so  (to retrieve his Father), then offered to help lift the Totara back into place.

When dawn came Rata was all alone, the little creatures had gone, and the Totara  was back in its original state. Rata vowed to never chop down another tree, and  a voice near him told him that he may, but he must ask permission from Tane  Mahuta first.

As Rata returned home he came across a mighty war canoe sitting on logs in the  forest, and he asked if it was his, and the voice said "yes, Rata's waka"

I believe that this is what the elves are like, they have no specific qualms about felling trees and harming nature, but they respect it. The Maori also used tools similar to elves, most of their weapons were wood or stone (sometimes obsidian).

Elves probably wouldn't smoke drugs though, they would be more likely to just chew them, since it takes less work to do and they are always around the drugs. I would imagine that they would just walk along and pick a hemp leaf to chew.

Dwarves seem to be the sort of people that would smoke drugs, since they go through many extra processes to get items of particular quality, like how they make soap, or how they get honey and make mead.

Goblins would probably just do whatever they can, probably smoking what they loot and then chewing the rest of the time. I can imagine that they might do a crude form of injection by cutting themselves and then rubbing the liquid drug in.

Quote
We don't have addiction to alcohol in the game, dwarves just need it to   operate at peak efficiency.

That is alcoholism. Functional alcoholism, to be correct. In real life, when people are addicted to alcohol, they don't operate very well at all, they are depressed, lazy, demotivated, etc.

It's just that with dwarves, the effects of being drunk are far less. Maybe they don't even get drunk, since they are so acclimatised to alcohol.
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werechicken

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Re: What about a good smoke ?
« Reply #74 on: May 07, 2011, 06:48:36 am »

This talk about elves reminded off a pretty funny line from a BBC comedy, I think it was called the detectives.

They're at a hippy camp where the filthy hippies are trying to stop the cutting down of trees, calling them miracles of nature, and one of them asks the detectives for a match and their reply is "don't you mean a dismembered chunk of one of natures miracles?"

However elves spliffing up would be funny, also in regards to an earlier qoute I would have assumed 'herbs' could be strongly interpreted as marjuanna.

Also this'd make taverns much more atmospheric
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