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[Marshall Burns]

Really it'd be nice to see the "needs alcohol to get through the working day" system to be applied to other stuff as well. Tobacco, coffee, some weird root that goblins chew on or something, whatever.

[Jeoshua]

Urist McMarlboro: Needs a good pipe to get through the working day?

I like that idea.  Some dwarves might even replace their need for alcohol with a need for tobacco.  They would still be able to drink alcohol, of course, but wouldn't slow down their working speed if they had to drink water, since their "need" is not for booze, but for smokage.

Also, I agree with the necessity of personal posessions before this is implemented.  Obviuosly they should not have to run to the smoke stockpile to get a pipe and smoke on their break, rather it would be on their person, in their pocket, at all times.  This could dovetail nicely into material preferences and noble requirements, as some nobles may request a fine ivory smoking pipe and giant cave spider bag (to hold their tobacco in).

[Bohandas]

Drugs: Not necessary

Smoking: Almost deffinitely necessary.  With pipes.  And smoke clouds (before you say it hurts FPS, ask yourself this: Does mist hurt FPS? OR is it just Misma...)

Ok
First, Just because it doesn't get people properly, correctly, acceptably high, in a way visible to other people, doesn't mean that tobacco isn't a drug. It causes withdraw symptoms like a drug...

Sure, it's a drug. But alcohol is more of a drug, and is already included in-game.

And marajuana is less of a drug than either of them and ISN'T included... despite the fact that it comes from a type of plant that can also be used to make rope, a product that is already reasonably significant to the game...

[Jeoshua]

We don't have addiction to alcohol in the game, dwarves just need it to operate at peak efficiency.  After listening to the latest DFTalk, it seems that Toady is wanting to redo the likes/dislikes section of the code, and replace happiness with something more defined and individually oriented.  So a dwarf with a love of gold gets happy about the masterwork gold tables you've put there, but one who loves silver doesn't get quite as happy.  That and having favorite things that give them happiness, that they will seek out when depressed.

That being said, there is no need for modelling nicotine addiction.  The dwarf merely has a love of tobacco, and without access to it they do not operate at peak efficiency.

Also:  We don't have dwarves getting drunk and falling into magma, not beating their wives after getting really sloshed... so why would we expect that having drugs in the game would introduce weird effects? Opium wars wouldn't be waged, they'd just make money on the caravans from it, that's all.

[IT 000]

Mr. Bohandas, you have said many reasons against not having marijuana in the game. I am curious, why do you think we need marijuana in the game?

Plus even if hemp wasn't in the vanilla, one could easily mod it it in by copying the tobacco entry and changing the name.

[Jeoshua]

I would like to see "He needs a joint to get through the working day", honestly.  But any effects past needing it to operate at peak efficiency would be adding too much to the game, as I stated above.

[IT 000]

I would like to see "He needs a joint to get through the working day", honestly

Still, why? I agree on you, addictions should be more like peak efficiency that is already in the game. But I can't wrap my mind around why we need an obviously controversial and illegal drug in the vanilla.

[sockless]

Dwarves needing alcohol to work at peak efficiency is being addicted.

Anyway, I think that there shouldn't be an underground crop, as that wouldn't be effected by the weather and I think that it's important that tobacco can only be grown in certain biomes as it would supplement the caravan arc.

[Jeoshua]

We don't absolutely NEED drugs.  But I feel we DO need pipes.  They're too dwarfy... every RPG I've ever played a Dwarf in, he's always puffing on some acrid herbal blend.

"Puts hair on yer beard, boy-o... care for a puff?"

[Bobinater]

I absolutely agree on most points being made about tobacco however I am impartial about Hemp/marijuana.

Hemp is a very useful plant that has been used to make a wide variety of products however Dwarf fortress already has an equivalent to Hemp in everything but name and adding it in would do little for anything but flavor.  It seems Toady One also avoids using real life plant names and for all we know rope reed might already represent hemp or hemp like plant.  I think if any drugs are added it should be under a different name (for instance: Rope Reed Bud as opposed to Marijuana) I think this would help avoid negative connotations and fit more in with the flavor of Dwarf Fortress.  If tobacco was implemented it would be fairly simple to just copy the formula.  I also think smoking anything but tobacco is more of an elfish practice.

As for other drugs I am opposed to adding in any real life equivalents but rare hallucinogens or cleverly renamed drugs could add interesting options for Religion, trade and industry, and even civilization ethics and war.

Just my 2 cents

[werechicken]

Most of the worst drugs we have today are chemically extracted from plants and wouldn't be realistic in df, so no opium wars, however things like tobacco, 'herbs' and a whole host of psychedelic mushrooms would be fun and fitting.

Also some hallucinogenics, are associated with food going mouldy, this is actually what some people think actually caused the witch hunts in medival Europe and later in America.

Anyway enough going off topic - tobacco, the Inca's enjoyed a good roll-up and it'd be kind of fun see dwarves walking round giving off little puffs of smoke.

As for the other stuff it'd be pretty controversial no matter what way it was done.

[Mister Always]

Well, werechicken, technically speaking you don't need to extract most drugs chemically. I'm not sure how heroine, PCP and crack are made, but they wouldn't really fit the feel of the game anyway. Opium, marihuana and coca (cocaine comes from the coca plant of South America), however, could fit. Opium is just the latex that is gained by making incissions in nearly ripe poppy seedboxes, marihuana is smoked easy as nuthin', and the leaves of the coca plant can be chewed (giving a buzz of energy much like coffee). I'm not saying that just because they're available in the current tech level we have to put them in, but I am a whore for facts and looking smart on the internet (I CAN REMEMBER SIMPLE FACTS, DAMN IT! HONOUR ME AS YOUR NEW GOD!).

Anyway, there was a point here somewhere...oh yeah. Other uses for drugs.

1. Opium or its dorfy equivalent contains morphine, which as you may well know is a painkiller. This could be a new part of the hospital. If we have some kind of pain "stat" (pain is already in the game, but I think it just makes you faint and stuff) whcih directly affects a hospitalized dorf's happyness, painkillers may become important. Just imagine one of your army officers, in traction, delirious with pain...until somebody sticks a pipe stuffed with opium into his mouth, and he becomes normally and properly delirious instead. Too much pain could lead to a few things, like for example serious resentment towards the doctor, or possibly even tantrums, leading to your chief doctor getting a splint stuck through his head.

2. Psychedelic mushrooms or herbs. Hallucinogetic complunds have been used for artists over decades (possibly even centuries, but I can't say I'm an expert on that or anything, so take it with a pinch of salt) for inspiration. Not just writers and painters, but musicians too (let's just say the Beatles enjoyed the occasional chemical-aided relaxation, among many, many others). So let's say Urist McStonecrafter's friends invite him to chew a 'shroom, lick a toad, whatever. Maybe, very rarely, they could go into mini "strange moods" where they make some...experimental art. Like a statue of a dwarf and a unicorn. The dwarf is laughing. The dwarf is riding the unicorn. The statue relates to Urist McStonecrafter's smoking of some gooood shit in the fall of 389. You get the idea, just weird little things, mini-artifacts - not as valuable and not with as many components, possibly even tradable, but just funny shit that you could put in a noble's bedroom or in your meeting area. It could even be really surreal shit, like a statue of a triangle and a square, with the triangle striking down the square...well, I dunno, it's got a pointy end, they could make it work. It could invite some of your more snooty, artsy dwarves (and possibly certain nobles, like the Philosopher if they ever get put back in) to discuss its "post-modern, surrealistic appeal" and its meaning ("The square symbolizes imperialism, obviously, and the triangle represents the right of every dwarf to make his own decisions." "No, no, you got it all wrong, it's..."). High-level craftsdwarves (possibly it'd be masons and carpenters and the like, too) could look at it and either go "hey, that's pretty good, I should make my stuff more like that, it's got a certain appeal..." or "What? This drug-addled rubbish gets praise and wonderment, while my masterpiece figurines of goblins striking down elves get nothing more than a óoh, very nice, well lemme take that to the depot for you'?! CONFOUND YOU, URIST MCSTONECRAFTER! CONFOUND YOU AND YOUR TOAD-LICKING ILK! A CURSE UPON YOUR TAR-STAINED HANDS!".

 This could lead to debates between craftsmen - the ones who want to propagate the new experimental style (with a focus on unicorns, odd geometry, images of pipes stuffed with leafy greens or whatever) and those stickler conservatives who want it to be all goblins killing elves, images of cheese in rutile and whatever. Resentment, deep grudges, an furious debates ensue. If ever there's a tantrum spiral, you know the "conservatives"will be going after Urist McStonecrafter - who'll be silently muterring curses to his friend Urist mcStoner as he walls himself in with enough booze to last the year and a few bits of cheese.

3. Hallucinogens applied to bolts and blow darts. Maybe they wouldn't kill goblins, per se, but they'd sit around on the grass, staring at their hands and going "duuuuuude..."".


Just some ideas.

[Johuotar]

things like tobacco, 'herbs' and a whole host of psychedelic mushrooms would be fun and fitting.

Toady mentioned mushrooms which cause hallucination in some df talk, I think he's planning to do them. If I remember right he said that they could be done when magic is introduced so that you cant know if the hallucinations are caused by magic.

[sockless]

I don't think that we should have to worry about controversy in the game. The media will never hear about it, and if they did want to complain, there's plenty as it is to complain about, think about it:

• A bunch of alcoholic dwarves
• Who like dismembering elves
• Who also throw babies goblins into magma

I don't see anything wrong with real plant names to be honest, I think it's more that Toady hasn't bothered figuring out what plants to base it on.

[Jeoshua]

Maybe, very rarely, they could go into mini "strange moods" where they make some...experimental art. Like a statue of a dwarf and a unicorn. The dwarf is laughing. The dwarf is riding the unicorn. The statue relates to Urist McStonecrafter's smoking of some gooood shit in the fall of 389.

Any Dwarf who goes into a mood and gives me something so blantantly elfy gets the magma, no delay.  So does his statue 

Only thing shrooms should be in game in my opinion is an ingested confusion effect.

Back on SMOKING tho (god people!)

A high quality smoking pipe would cause happy thoughts.  So we could all just pretend when they use the pipe it's some "gooood shit, man".  Especially if the "reagent" for the pipe is chosen from whatever plant leaves are avaliable ([SMOKABLE] tag).  I don't think the different plants should have different effects, or if different dwarves should have preferences for different smoke, like they do beer.

As stated above, it might be best if this was handled in the same way in the game as alcohol preference, meaning some dwarves like rope reed leaves, and others like long grass.

Also, I suppose if the smoking caused a mild amount of distress in some way, it would make it more likely that dwarves would have a mood after a smoke.  This would be true of any kind of smoke (I get inspired after smoking a cigarette QUITE often)