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Author Topic: The Dissolution of State Government  (Read 41313 times)

knaveofstaves

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Re: The Dissolution of State Government - The Big One
« Reply #480 on: April 30, 2011, 10:07:06 am »

So when they question the government, they don't actual question the government. They attack and remove individuals without daring to imagine that the system itself is broken. The most outrageous things done by the corporations and government of this country are not the illegal things they do, but the legal ones.
I think there's a lot of truth in what you say. I only question whether this is any different than at any other time in U.S. history. Manifest Destiny, Remember the Alamo, Remember the Maine... McCarthyism yesterday, Gitmo and waterboarding today, something else tomorrow. Greedy warmongering lies are our national heritage!
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SalmonGod

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Re: The Dissolution of State Government - The Big One
« Reply #481 on: April 30, 2011, 11:28:06 am »

As far as I can tell, before WWII we had basically the same cultural problems as the rest of the western world (racism, religious fundamentalism, the human rights struggles of the industrial revolution, etc).  Then in WWII, we converted our society into a war machine, in order to accomplish something that if not good was at least necessary.  When the job was done, we never figured out or even bothered to try to reverse that.  We became strictly predatory.  Our way of life is to consume others, with our leaders even consuming their own people.  At the same time, we've retained this stubborn receptiveness to any claim that whatever we do serves some higher purpose that excuses however ugly those actions are on the surface.  As long as some talking head can find any reason to describe another group as bad people, then it's impossible for us to also be bad people...
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Vector

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Re: The Dissolution of State Government - The Big One
« Reply #482 on: April 30, 2011, 12:51:27 pm »

As far as I can tell, before WWII we had basically the same cultural problems as the rest of the western world (racism, religious fundamentalism, the human rights struggles of the industrial revolution, etc).  Then in WWII, we converted our society into a war machine, in order to accomplish something that if not good was at least necessary.  When the job was done, we never figured out or even bothered to try to reverse that.  We became strictly predatory.  Our way of life is to consume others, with our leaders even consuming their own people.  At the same time, we've retained this stubborn receptiveness to any claim that whatever we do serves some higher purpose that excuses however ugly those actions are on the surface.  As long as some talking head can find any reason to describe another group as bad people, then it's impossible for us to also be bad people...

Very insightful and interesting.  Thank you.
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SHAD0Wdump

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Re: The Dissolution of State Government - The Big One
« Reply #483 on: April 30, 2011, 12:55:27 pm »

Sounds like a new age Crusade.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: The Dissolution of State Government - The Big One
« Reply #484 on: April 30, 2011, 05:45:22 pm »

As far as I can tell, before WWII we had basically the same cultural problems as the rest of the western world (racism, religious fundamentalism, the human rights struggles of the industrial revolution, etc).  Then in WWII, we converted our society into a war machine, in order to accomplish something that if not good was at least necessary.  When the job was done, we never figured out or even bothered to try to reverse that.  We became strictly predatory.  Our way of life is to consume others, with our leaders even consuming their own people.  At the same time, we've retained this stubborn receptiveness to any claim that whatever we do serves some higher purpose that excuses however ugly those actions are on the surface.  As long as some talking head can find any reason to describe another group as bad people, then it's impossible for us to also be bad people...

It's both much more subtle than that, and less cynical, even if the results are the same. To put it simply, the US has a national obsession with wearing the White Hat, and opposing the Black Hat. (A few early western shows, primarily those aimed at kids, color-coded the good and bad characters in that manner, and it is a useful means of examining hte resultant archetypes.) In WWI, the US went "over there" to pull the French and British out of the quagmire. (Talking historical perception here. The American Expiditionary force was decisive, but was little more than fresh muscle. The keys to victory were British innovations in armor and French blitzkrieg infiltration tactics.) In WWII, the US styled itself the "Great Arsenal of Democracy" and later embarked on "The Great Crusade" against the fascist Axis powers. After the war, Only the US and Soviet Union had any real strength remaining, as much Soviet industry had been relocated to the far east and US industry was completely unharmed by the war. When Stalin began subsuming everything he could reach into a buffer zone of puppet states in order to provide the rodina with a shield agains the next German or French invasion. it fell to the US with it's nuclear monopoly and largely intact military to "keep the lights on" in Western Europe. (Again, reality was somewhat more complicated, but we're discussing perceptions here.) This vision of the US as a bulwark was only strengthened by the Korean War Police Action and was not seriously challenged until the Vietnam era. In more recent times, the US-led Coalition crushed the invading Iraqi army in Sadui Arabia and swept them from Kuwait.
     The point is that Americans have come to expect that, whenever American armies go into action, they will be "on the side of the angels." This is, in and of itself, not a bad thing. The problems with it are twofold. First, it's difficult for a country that has set itself up as a defender for a century to realize that a defender isn't needed. It's not 1945 anymore, and most countries are not only capable of looking out for their own interests, they are equally able to provide aid and comfort to those who lack that ability. Second, when chastised for interference, or opposed by parties whose agendas are stymied by the possibility of intervention, the result is a petulant "but we're the good guys!" Besides the obvious, this attitude lends itself far to easily to a dualistic castle mentality, not helped by blind America-bashing from a very vocal portion of the European population.
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SalmonGod

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Re: The Dissolution of State Government - The Big One
« Reply #485 on: April 30, 2011, 05:58:19 pm »

I believe your explanation as applied to the general public.  My more cynical view was meant to be applied mainly to powerful decision makers, with only the first and last two sentences applying to the general public.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
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Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Lord Shonus

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Re: The Dissolution of State Government - The Big One
« Reply #486 on: April 30, 2011, 06:07:22 pm »

Okay, I can see how that makes sense
.
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SalmonGod

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Re: The Dissolution of State Government - The Big One
« Reply #487 on: April 30, 2011, 06:29:19 pm »

Yeah.  I think I can be pretty bad about switching back and forth between the two and not making the distinction clear when I talk about issues like this.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Aqizzar

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Re: The Dissolution of State Government - The Big One
« Reply #488 on: May 10, 2011, 06:48:17 pm »

Dusting off the thread.  I mentioned that Michigan's governor Rick Snyder would be traveling to St. Joseph and Benton Harbor on May 7 to host a parade.  It stayed peaceful.  Needless to say, it didn't get a lot of news coverage.  You can read some quotes here, but it's anything but an impartial source.

Stephen Colbert had his fun last night, which was kinda late but it's always a good time.  Very interesting quotes and audio from the Benton Harbor manager, rather emphatically praising himself for being the judge, jury, and executioner of civic power... nearly a month before the law that gave him his board-dissolving power was actually voted on.  I wonder what that was about.
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alway

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Re: The Dissolution of State Government
« Reply #489 on: May 26, 2011, 09:24:57 pm »

Reviving this thread, as there is an update to the Wisconsin anti-union law. It has now been overturned by a judge as in violation of the state's open meeting laws (vote must have at least 2 hour warning ahead of time; this one clearly did not). Final ruling will be up to the state's supreme court, although at this point it appears to be about as good as dead due to the violation simply being so blatantly obvious. Based on the below article, their only defenses consisted of 'there were emergency circumstances' and 'important laws like this one should be immune to open meeting laws.' By the looks of things, if they want it so badly, they will have to send it through again.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/27/us/27wisconsin.html?_r=2
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Aqizzar

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Re: The Dissolution of State Government
« Reply #490 on: May 26, 2011, 09:34:52 pm »

Thanks for the bump, I've been lining up a few things I wanted to mention lately.  I really started this thread to rail about runaway privatization, but with Vactor's Wisconsin thread dustier than mine, I suppose anything in state governance is fair game.

In Wisconsin in particular, they're actually proposing a constitutional amendment to strip some power from the Secretary of State, the one state-wide office held by a Democrat (Doug LaFollette), who put the breaks on signing the bill into law, but I'll have to find the proper reporting on that.  Meanwhile in Wisconsin, like a half dozen other states (with Republican dominated legislatures), they're ramming through legislation as fast as possible to make it harder to register to vote.  Gee, I wonder why.
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And here is where my beef pops up like a looming awkward boner.
Please amplify your relaxed states.
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SalmonGod

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Re: The Dissolution of State Government
« Reply #491 on: May 26, 2011, 10:01:32 pm »

Indiana is having some pretty major fourth amendment issues currently.

The courts here have basically set legal precedent that no one is allowed to resist unlawful police entry into their home for any reason.  Judges say there's nothing wrong with this, since they're not saying that police can do legally do anything they want, just that you're not allowed to stop them from doing something illegal.  You have to allow them to do whatever they want and then file your legal complaint after the fact.  If you try to get in their way, then you can literally be charged with something like unlawfully resisting unlawful entry into your home.

Don't have time to go super in depth on this with sources and such right now.  I wonder if Aqizzar has seen this.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Aqizzar

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Re: The Dissolution of State Government
« Reply #492 on: May 26, 2011, 10:11:33 pm »

Don't have time to go super in depth on this with sources and such right now.  I wonder if Aqizzar has seen this.

Yeah, I've heard of it, but I haven't looked too far into it.  I would appreciate if someone else would try spending ten minutes on Google.  It's fun, trust me.
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And here is where my beef pops up like a looming awkward boner.
Please amplify your relaxed states.
Quote from: PTTG??
The ancients built these quote pyramids to forever store vast quantities of rage.

SalmonGod

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Re: The Dissolution of State Government
« Reply #493 on: May 26, 2011, 10:16:37 pm »

I'll be able to oblige you in a few hours
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Vactor

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Re: The Dissolution of State Government
« Reply #494 on: June 04, 2011, 11:52:40 pm »

Reviving this thread, as there is an update to the Wisconsin anti-union law. It has now been overturned by a judge as in violation of the state's open meeting laws (vote must have at least 2 hour warning ahead of time; this one clearly did not). Final ruling will be up to the state's supreme court, although at this point it appears to be about as good as dead due to the violation simply being so blatantly obvious. Based on the below article, their only defenses consisted of 'there were emergency circumstances' and 'important laws like this one should be immune to open meeting laws.' By the looks of things, if they want it so badly, they will have to send it through again.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/27/us/27wisconsin.html?_r=2

As much as I am happy that judge Sumi ruled the way she did, (as it has staved off a substantial pay cut for me), it really was the incorrect ruling.  This however is not Sumi's fault, rather, it is the failure of the Department of Justice lawyers, who asked the Senate Chief Clerk no questions for their redirect, after the DA had quite skillfully cornered him into saying that the way that the legislative rules are written, it does not expressly exempt itself from the noticing requirements.

The DOJ attorney should have (and quite easily could have) given the Chief Clerk the opportunity to explain further with an open ended question,(such as, could you please explain the foundations of your legal opinion in this case) but did not.  My only disappointment with their failure is that it made the Chief Clerk, who I consider a friend, look foolish, and irrational regarding his legal opinion.  If you watch the tape of his testimony, its hard to tell which attorneys are on which side, as they both treat him like a hostile witness.

The decisions and processes of the legislature have always been self determined, and self corrected.  The elected members of the legislature determine and enforce their own rules, if the members dislike the process, it is up to them to sort it out, and put the leadership that they want in power.  If people dislike the manner in which they are represented, they have a recourse, either replace them at the end of their term, or recall them.  People have found it a bit frustrating how slowly this seems to take, but it is one of those intentionally built in inertial mechanics, to prevent too sudden of shifts in control.

I wonder if the Administration is beginning to realize that having quality people in government might not be so bad an idea after all, like having lawyers that could actually represent the government properly.  I think they haven't been all that eager to get the cuts back in right away, as a significant portion of the fiscal bureau attorneys are well into eligibility for retirement, and they know that they wouldn't have been able to get through the budget if they left.
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