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[khearn]

Zones appear linked to land.  I attempted to define a hole as a garbage zone, which failed, until I put a hatch over it and then defined the hatch as a zone.  That being said, I wonder if you could build a raised platform and declare it a meeting zone, would the geese fly to it?

Zones can hover in the air, once they have been defined. I had a deconstruction error when tearing down the temporary stairs next to one of my towers, after the watchbird had been pitted. The tower collapsed and fell into a room below it. So I built a new tower nearby. When I went to create the pit zone on top of the new tower, i noticed that the pit zone from the original tower was still there, floating 2 z-levels above ground. So you could possibly build a stairway up a couple of z-levels an put a meeting zone on top, then deconstruct the stairs. This should result is a floating meeting zone (assuming meeting zones work the same as pit zones).

I seem to recall reading about buggy behavior with flying animals and meeting zones, though. So your geese may still not go to them. Plus, there no way to make sure they go to a specific meeting zone. All your geese may be hanging out in your statue garden when the ambush sneaks past the empty floating meeting zones.

Hmmm, I wonder if you could create a pasture zone, put a goose there, then deconstruct the stairs and have the goose just fly in place? I suspect the goose would fall when you removed the stairs. I was doing dwarf dropping !!SCIENCE!! a while back and had a dwarf with a pet goose get dropped from a retracting bridge, and the goose fell with him.  So they don't always fly when you might think they would.

Maybe make stairs and a few floor tiles at the top with a pasture on all the tiles, pasture the goose, then remove a couple of tiles. Maybe the goose would fly out into a pasture tile without a floor? In that case, you could then remove the other floors and stairs while the bird was flying? Dunno. Shouldn't be too hard to try, but I'm at work now so I can't.

[Farmerbob]

I've been thinking about this and how I'd build it.

First - just build it right on the ground.  Stairway up from underneath with hatch set to be pet impassable.  1x2 area, one tile for pet, one tile for hatch.  Around that windows.  so 3x4 glass windows.  Then around the windows, fortifications, making it 5x6.  Then put a floor on it.

The fortifications protect the windows from building destroyers.  The glass protects the critter inside from arrows.  The roof protects from flyers.  Dwarves can come freely through the access tunnel to replace animals.  Heck, you can have dwarves stand guard and practice their observer skill, perhaps.

Have I missed something?

[Girlinhat]

Detection radius, mostly.  The upright design allows enemies to pass underneath, while yours forces them around it.  This may have the same effect, but pathfinding can be strange at times.  Footprint is another issue, yours takes up space and prevents passage, while on mine dwarves can run under it, allowing for quicker civilian escape and quicker chasing down of fleeing enemies.  Aesthetics is a smaller issue, mine is an actual watchtower, while yours is more bunker

[Farmerbob]

Detection radius, mostly.  The upright design allows enemies to pass underneath, while yours forces them around it.  This may have the same effect, but pathfinding can be strange at times.  Footprint is another issue, yours takes up space and prevents passage, while on mine dwarves can run under it, allowing for quicker civilian escape and quicker chasing down of fleeing enemies.  Aesthetics is a smaller issue, mine is an actual watchtower, while yours is more bunker

Ah for pathfinding, yes, I agree.  I'll play with one tonight at work I think

[Kaos]

About detection cone for the tower and bunker designs and variations, what about building a few of these, abandoning the fortress, and then travel there with an adventurer to see what a dwarf sees from behind one of these?


Alternatively, use runesmith to place hidden ambushers on 1x1 pilars (so they don't move) around the structures and see which ones get detected...

[Starver]

Aesthetics is a smaller issue, mine is an actual watchtower, while yours is more bunker

...and I'd call my current variant a "bellygunner pillbox".

[shadowclasper]

Probably going to do the quicky versions in the beginning of my new fort then upgrade to higher-powdered ones that have the tunnel network I tend to prefer my dwarves underground as much as possible :3

Other than that, this would be REALLY easy to set up as a warning system in the underground caverns as well >> at least on the edges so you can see if invasions hit from under there and such.

[khearn]

Detection radius, mostly.  The upright design allows enemies to pass underneath, while yours forces them around it.  This may have the same effect, but pathfinding can be strange at times.  Footprint is another issue, yours takes up space and prevents passage, while on mine dwarves can run under it, allowing for quicker civilian escape and quicker chasing down of fleeing enemies.  Aesthetics is a smaller issue, mine is an actual watchtower, while yours is more bunker

I think the detection radius would be the same. Don't you lose one space of range for each z-level of difference? I'm pretty sure that's the case for ranged weapons, and I've also observed similar behavior when I break into the top of a very deep cavern and as I move downward the area I can see gets narrower and narrower.

Actually, I think it would have a larger detection footprint. The range from the outside edge of the structure would be the same, but the area it covers would be bigger. So you'd need fewer of them. Or have smaller gaps between the same number.

A bigger footprint can also have advantages in that it channels the attackers into areas that can have traps. With stilt-legged towers, you have no clue where an attacker will path. but with 5x6 bunkers, there is a fairly good chance that an attacker will end up passing right next to it.

Code: [Select]

.......
...^...
.FFFFF.
.FWWWF.
.FWbWF.
.FWhWF.
.FWWWF.
.FFFFF.
...^...
.......
. = empty ground      F = Fortification
W = Window            b = watchbird
h = hatch             ^ = trap
So if the attackers are coming from the east or west on any of the 6 rows the bunker blocks, he'll instead go around the north or south end and hit the traps.

These are also easier and safer to build. You can designate all the fortifications at once, then build one set of temporary up/down stairs, then build the roof all at once. Then tear down the stairs and you are completely done outside and can build the hatch and windows from the inside without having your workers exposed to ambushes. Building towers requires a lot more waiting for bits to get built before you can designate the next bits. And it's a lot of trips exposed on the surface for your workers.

This takes takes 19 stones (including the hatch) vs. 18 for the tower, and 10 windows vs 4 for the tower. The stones don't really matter, and the number of windows only matters of you're short on sand (or wood and magma). In my current fort I have no sand, so more windows means waiting for more caravans. Although I suspect the number of fortifications and/or windows might be able to be reduced for the bunker (are the corner fortifications/windows necessary?).

Code: [Select]

.......
...^...
..FFF..
.FFWFF.
.FWbWF.
.FWhWF.
.FFWFF.
..FFF..
...^...
.......
That's 19 stones and 6 windows. I think that would give as good of visibility, but would an archer be able to shoot in on the diagonals between the corners of the windows?

Code: [Select]

.......
...^...
...F...
..FWF..
.FWbWF.
.FWhWF.
..FWF..
...F...
...^...
.......
11 stones and 6 windows, but I'm even less sure about this one's safety. Can building destroyers get those windows through the diagonals?

One way or the other, I'm starting to like this design.

[Girlinhat]

Detection radius is a cube, not a diamond (as mentioned earlier in the thread).  It loses no range across Z levels.

I've never observed a window smash across diagonals, but I've seen it happen on slants.  Like, a destroyer standing slightly askew from a door, 1 tile away.  I suspect it's like floors though, in that they can be built diagonally but only if there's an orthogonal tile available.  In that case, a diamond shape would be very small and still work, though be aware that fortifications and windows won't support a roof.

[khearn]

This thread's been going so long I've forgotten half of what was said earlier.

So the detection radius would be the same, measured from the birdy.

Good point about the roof. You'd have to build walls, then carve the fortifications out. Can you do that with constructed walls? I seem to recall hearing that you can't. I suspect you can if they're built from blocks (and thus a smooth wall), but I'm not at all certain. Assuming you can carve them out, that's something that can be done from the inside after it's secure.

Or you could just toss some walls in there:

Code: [Select]

.......
...^...
...F...
..OWO..
.FWbWF.
.FWhWF.
..OWO..
...F...
...^...
.......
O = Wall

They'd block view diagonally, but if you have it positioned so the attackers have to pass north or south of it, they'd still get detected before they get past.

[Girlinhat]

No, you just... build a fortification.  Lol.

[jwest23]

I haven't tested in the latest version, but I distinctly recall building walls and carving fortifications into them.  Unlike built fortifications, they leave a top that a dwarf can walk upon.  I suspect this means they'll support a floor, just like an un-carved wall would.

[Girlinhat]

Oh, well if you're casting obsidian or carving out the sides of a mountain, that's a different story entirely.  I'm fairly certain that would work.

[Farmerbob]

No, you just... build a fortification.  Lol.

o.0  I had no idea this was possible.  I always build walls, then carve fortifications out of them.

I'm pretty sure they support loads exactly like walls when built this way, but I'll do some science tonight if I have time.

[Girlinhat]

Can you carve a fortification out of a constructed wall?  I... have never tested this but I assumed it's preposterous!