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Author Topic: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy  (Read 13602 times)

Karakzon

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #60 on: March 05, 2011, 03:09:24 pm »

If you want an example of good fantesy:

Terry pratchet has a unique and humerous veiw/take on all the classic mythos.

bad fantesy?
anything that plays too heavily on aspects of cliche and just because/lack of storyline.

ie: dorfs hate elves. this may be true in some settings, but dorfs will certainly prefer elves over goblins any day -if were talking about classical mythos- wereas in a bad fantesy the dwarf would quite happily butcher the lot or leave the elf anyway, because its an elf. ie: their is no character development or moral compass involved in it.
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Cruxador

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #61 on: March 05, 2011, 03:24:39 pm »

ie: dorfs hate elves. this may be true in some settings, but dorfs will certainly prefer elves over goblins any day -if were talking about classical mythos- wereas in a bad fantesy the dwarf would quite happily butcher the lot or leave the elf anyway, because its an elf. ie: their is no character development or moral compass involved in it.
That's not inherently bad, though. If dwarves fucking hate elves and are actively at war and butcher them all the time, then that's just an aspect of the setting. If they hate goblins more or less, that doesn't really matter.
The important part is that there should be reasons for it. If they hate elves because elves attack them whenever the dwarves collect lumber, and thus they view elves as pests to be exterminated, then that's fine. If they don't really care about goblins because sure, goblins are immoral little buggers, but they mostly keep to their own besides raids (and those raids are on humans more often than not anyway) then that's fine too.
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Neonivek

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #62 on: March 05, 2011, 03:25:44 pm »

Elves and Dwarves get together relatively fine mostly because they don't get in eachother's way.

It is Elves and Humans that are mortal enemies.
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Solace

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #63 on: March 05, 2011, 03:50:55 pm »

I'd be curious to look at your reading list. Is it all action sequences and pithy dialogue or something?
I have read many books that present unique visions of rather alien creatures that do not require chapter long infodumps or tedious description to give you an understanding of what these beings are.
You mean a list of every book I've ever read? I'd say conservatively it'd be in the thousands, possibly low ten thousands. And, for every book that features something truly unique and weird and does it well (mammalian caterpillar with prehensile fur used for communication), there's a book where I'm left with some vague description of something having backwards knees and long fingers, or that "looks truly alien". Often both examples come out in the same book, where an important species gets properly described, but another is "made of a crystalline structure" and glossed over, because if you have 63 alien species in your universe, they're not all getting screen time.

And for procedurally generated creatures, I mean, look at the ones we already have. This is a [slight modification] [species name], beware it's poisonous bite! That's fine for a one-of horror you're going to dispose of as quickly as possible anyway, but you're not going to get the same sense of attachment that people around here get to the idea of "being dwarves".
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 03:52:40 pm by Solace »
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G-Flex

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #64 on: March 05, 2011, 04:10:51 pm »

And for procedurally generated creatures, I mean, look at the ones we already have. This is a [slight modification] [species name], beware it's poisonous bite! That's fine for a one-of horror you're going to dispose of as quickly as possible anyway, but you're not going to get the same sense of attachment that people around here get to the idea of "being dwarves".

Well yeah, and that's why the current Forgotten Beast/Titan generation mechanic is not the end goal. Toady intentionally started off small to test the waters a bit. He knows it's a limited mechanic and doesn't pretend that it's not.
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Nikov

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #65 on: March 05, 2011, 04:22:22 pm »


Truth.


The depth of his works really comes to the surface when you recall the author's life. The Noldor seem like a simple tale about heroism leading to folly, but think; a high and noble race follows their king across the sea to do war in a vast continent against an evil foe, the orcs, who were once elves but became corrupted. In the process, the Noldor themselves suffer terribly, things don't go as planned, their champions are slain and the enemy has powers (dragons, balrogs) beyond their might. The war pretty well falls apart and eventually they begin to return home. But isn't it telling to consider what happened in Tolkien's lifetime? Raised in middle-class English morality, inspired by Victorian culture, joins the Army to fight the Kaiser and his invasion of France, everything goes to hell, the Germans have artillery and gas and machine guns, and although they finally win the whole thing is bittersweet and their greatness is lost in muddy fields across a foreign soil. And no doubt he learned the Germans were just like him, once.

"We were all orcs in the trenches." - J.R.R.T.

It isn't fairy-tale morality. It's a warning for the Noldor, whenever they return to Arda.
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thvaz

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #66 on: March 05, 2011, 04:28:46 pm »

The Children of Hurin. Incest and suicide on the Middle Earth.
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SalmonGod

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #67 on: March 05, 2011, 04:43:30 pm »

Thanks Nikov.  It doesn't get any grittier than WWI, and I think it's fascinating that a veteran of those trenches could produce a work such as his, where he goes to great lengths describing people and places of great beauty.  In fact, it's incredible that, as I recall, he began dreaming up epic tales such as The Lay of Leithian while still in service.

Children of Hurin was amazing.  Turin was the most valiant hero Tolkien ever described, and his accomplishments against Morgoth could only be compared to the likes of Maedhros or Fingolfin (who was the only non-valar to ever lay a hand on Morgoth directly).  Yet there was a sort of vanity and pride behind everything he did, which soured all of those accomplishments into some form of defeat.  Even his victory over the most wicked beast Morgoth ever bred was horribly bitter, and led to the defeat of the last elvish stronghold of middle-earth in that age.
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Mazonas

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #68 on: March 05, 2011, 06:41:59 pm »

Quote
If people can't handle verbal descriptions of things and creatures they haven't seen before, then they can't handle books. And if you can't handle successfully giving said descriptions, then you're a hack of an author/storyteller.

I have to disagree.  As someone currently writing a fantasy novel.

Yes, writing a description of something in a way that is understandable is easy, but not in a way that flows smoothly with the rest of ther dialogue.  You could write a beautifully crafted paragraph detailing the appearance of the creature, but where do you put it in?

"Arrul ran as fast as he could, feet tripping and stumbling on loose rocks and sediment.  Blood caked his feet where the small cuts were reopened, but he barely noticed the pain.  Even the searing cold went unnoticed.  Fear.  Terror.  The heavy, hollow doom sound of his pursuer filled his awareness like a second heartbeat.  A missed jump, he stumbled, hands scrambling frantically at loose rocks as he slid further back.  An animal cry of anguish filled his lungs as he finally turned, blood and vomit sniffing at the back of his throat, to face his pursuer.  Tears filled his eyes.

The Pursuer was a large, purple mass, larger than a muskox but smaller than an elephant.  It had long hair, three eyes and a set of black claws on each foot.  The skin was like..."

And already you've been dragged out of the excitement, the pacing, the tension and the emotion by a description.  In a RL novel, a lot of people will just skim the description out of frustration to get back to the "good bit".  A good writer needs to knit the decription seamlessly into the action, so you barely notice you're being taught it.  Elves, goblins, humans, dwarves; these all allow the writer to get on with writing the story instead of worrying about that.  In my fantasy novel, one key feature of the nomads I'm writing about is that horses are not used as beasts of burden by them.  I've not created some bizarre fantasy alternative, I'm using a RL creature that I simply believe makes more sense for them considering the terrain they cover.  A Takin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Takin.  But trying to make this apparent to the reader without detracting from the story is making me tear my hair out.
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Solace

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #69 on: March 05, 2011, 07:17:01 pm »

Well yeah, and that's why the current Forgotten Beast/Titan generation mechanic is not the end goal. Toady intentionally started off small to test the waters a bit. He knows it's a limited mechanic and doesn't pretend that it's not.
I didn't say you can't make a better random-creature-generator, I'm saying that there's not the same sense of attachment if you ended up with a random new specie to learn every time you make a new fortress. Dwarves love stone and booze and magma and complicated machines, and I can work with that. I boot up a new game, and I end up instead with lizard people who live in a swamp, take pride in working together to hunt for food, because at three feet tall, even regular wildlife is a serious and noble effort to take down. They don't revere nature, but are good at using it, having several beasts of burden for every job, which of course double as food sources and makeshift guard animals. Their magic tends to make use of plants and fungi, and while they're not generally considered hostile, due to their stature and preferred living areas, don't tend to trade with outsiders out of a simple lack of shared desired goods. Of course, I also get a long list of materials they prefer to work with and items they tend to make, their preferred food, how all their dozens of unique farm animals work, the history of their culture, what a major city is like verus a minor hamlet, how they structure themselves socially, what religion they practice... I'm just glossing over this all, but look at the size of this paragraph already! I'd have to study these guys for hours before I even know if I'm supposed to strike the earth! Maybe instead, they make long reed-mat walls, and patrol, using their large numbers and excellent swamp-movement to their advantage. They prefer using spears and traps due to their small size and weak stature, but since they live in soggy environments, avoid armor for the most part. They don't use bows because items made of wood and rope don't last in excellent condition for long, instead preferring slings, which in their more established militaries, use magically imbued rocks. Lacking in formal education or the ability to engineer large structures, they are surprisingly well informed and knowledgeable, due to their ability to quickly grasp what everyone in a large group is saying, so while most races would find a large room full of talking people to be just meaningless noise unless you can tune everyone out but one, these small lizards can learn about fifty points of view at the same time. Although they evolved for swimming, they have learned to use their claws and agility to expertly climb trees, although on a whole they tend to dislike heights. Because of their light weight and lack of armor, attacking groups often find themselves ambushed from above, and because of this learned ability, they carefully tend large trees to grow in their swamps, where they would normally have trouble growing. Although they tend to use traditional items and techniques, it's not because they're trapped in their past, but because few items stand their corrosive environment well, but the few new technologies they can use tend to be adopted almost instantly. And, well, who read all that, let alone the next ten pages I'd need for you to properly understand these guys?
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SalmonGod

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #70 on: March 05, 2011, 07:32:47 pm »

I would actually love if the game procedurally generated creatures like that, Solace, as it would make every playthrough more memorable.  I think there should be some staples just for firm ground to stand on while getting accustomed.  For instance, I can't imagine ever not having the option to just embark with a standard group of dwarves.  However, being confronted by a civilization of procedurally generated creatures that you must actively study to learn how to combat/trade with/etc efficiently and who contributes to a genuinely unique world gen beyond "Ok I have volcanos here here and here, the elves are here, dwarves are here, and goblins are there.  Got it."  would be pretty incredible.

Forgotten Beasts do this, but as one-shot encounters, it only ends up meaning so much.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
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Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Solace

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2011, 08:03:56 pm »

Alright, and to instantly do a 180 and argue the flipside, how would this actually happen? If the game could spit out something that imaginative on it's own, then awesome, but how's it realistically going to understand the technological implications of evolving to live in a swamp, or how hibernation might impact a specie's social structure? Forgotten beasts look different, sure, but every one acts like "a forgotten beast". Can the game be smart enough to figure out a way for twenty-pound intelligent rats to fight a war with t-rexes? Not just throw them together, but have the rats sit down and think, now seriously, how are we going to pull this off. What would it be a good or bad idea for each side to try, in this case. Should desert-dwelling coyotes even fight semi-aquatic nagas, regardless of how they got provoked? Doesn't really seem to be an endgame in which the coyotes end up with more usable stuff out of that kind of a war. Maybe the nagas are vulnerable to salt, which is abundant in the desert, but can the coyotes figure it out, and apply it to their weapons somehow?
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SalmonGod

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2011, 09:15:25 pm »

I don't know.  I was just saying the game wouldn't suffer for it.  I can see how some of toady's creature tags, such as ethics and the future plans for them, already brush shoulders with this stuff.  Plus, I never would have believed a lot of the things DF pulls off before having played it myself.  So we'll just have to wait and see what happens.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Flaede

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2011, 02:12:04 am »

Should desert-dwelling coyotes even fight semi-aquatic nagas, regardless of how they got provoked? Doesn't really seem to be an endgame in which the coyotes end up with more usable stuff out of that kind of a war.

I'll take up that challenge:
The Coyotes want the Nagas sweet kelp deposits. It's great fuel for the fires of industry! The Nagas hate the Coyote's freedom.

Every civ probably will have some resource they treasure (Land is a resource as well, so save redundancy in figuring out this stuff). If the game decides that someone else wants it, too. Then negotiations would ensue. If negotiations break down due to cultural differences, then attempts at war begin. I say attempts because I'm not even sure how a Coyote Hero would attack a naga village alone, let alone how an army of aquatic Naga Freedom Fighters would raid a desert.
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Cruxador

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Re: "Refuting Tolkien" - DF too real for Froofy Fantasy
« Reply #74 on: March 06, 2011, 03:15:00 am »

The Children of Hurin. Incest and suicide on the Middle Earth.
Probably my favorite Tolkien book. Not just because of the dark stuff.
Honestly, I hope one day that DF will be able to play out Turin's life in adventurer mode. It's a great hero story, in the vein of the old Greek (and similar) tales. It captures that essence far better than any other fantasy I can think of at the moment.
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