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[Darvi]

Oh >_>

[Jack A T]

Read.  Got some opinions:

*Org's Lich Claim: ...Right...
*Org's Everything Else Claims: ...Right...
*Complaints about Investigations of Laws: And why shouldn't we try to figure out what the day's laws are?  Laws matter.  They can change what our preferred behaviour is.  Make us more or less cautious when voting.  They can mess up scumhunting.
*Investigation of Jester's Claims: Why shouldn't we question the jester when he claims to know something?  Look at this.  We gained useful information about zombies, if what Jim claims is true.
*Book's Jester Confirmation Contradiction: This, I have to say I really don't like.  At all.  It doesn't make me feel very much into trusting Jimbook.

2) I do know why he did that, yes.

Jim Groovester: Please explain.

Spoilspecs: Tonight, mind checking the powers of either Org or Jim tonight?

[Zrk2]

Zrk2: You had no real reason to think Bayer was scum, you just seemed to hop on the "Herp derp, he's "defending" Org" wagon. The way I saw it, he was simply stating his distaste for an Org policy lynch. With good reason (I suppose), it never works out. Why did you vote him?

I thought he was scum because he was defending Org acting in a truly atrocious fashion, so I thought he was trying to protect his scumbuddy from being lynched.

Jim: Here are some quotes of you and Mr. Person doing nothing but picking at each other.

Spoiler: Massive Spoiler is Massive (click to show/hide)

@lordnincompoop and Jim Groovester: My reasoning for voting Book was that he scumhunted a confirmed jester. Now, even he admitted that Org was a jester at the time. He also said he'd be happy to lynch the jester. All of this just screams that he doesn't want to scumhunt. That's a major scumtell right there.

Furthermore, Book did no actual scumhunting beyond talking with Org. That further implies he doesn't want to scumhunt. He only attacked me after I attacked him. I won't say OMGUS, but it was very reactive and passive. We all know passiveness is the way of the scum.

If you still think my argument is crap, I'd at least appreciate it if you said WHY you think it's crap instead of just going "oh, he's scum because his argument is bad" and walking off. Thank you.

Well see, you're wasting your time by scumhunting a player whose alignment is already publicly known. You're also trying to scumhunt one of the hardest-to-read players we have when he's NOT a jester trying to obfuscate, much less when he actually is. And even if he isn't, he's obviously going to try to act like one, so you're left with an absurdly difficult scumhunt that hinges on an impossible situation happening.

Are you saying we should ignore him from this point on?

That is a potentially very dangerous decision. This is an unpredictable game, and Org may be aligned one way or another that we don't know about. All we know is Bayer defended Org, who flipped town, and that Org's power is to reveal his alignment. We can draw that conclusion, but I'm certainly not going to sit and ignore him for the rest of the game. This can be a cover (a risky one), and one of the factions may even have recruitment powers, which would make Org a perfect target for that.

Pand may make "lies" of omission, if I'm getting this right. He hasn't stated anything regarding the role besides the fact that he won't tell outright lies, which is quite ambiguous to me.

Yes, we really are best off ignoring him. Everything he says is WIFOM. Yes, his role might change, but it probably won't. And besides, Org is probably the worst player imaginable to turn into scum. Everybody already wants him dead, it doesn't give the scum a net advantage in votes, and doesn't gain the scum a useful night power. Wowies. If the scum did have a conversion, the best play would be to use it on night of mylo or lylo on a non-Org player to gain vote dominance. That's either tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, depending on how many scum we have. Basically what I'm saying is that conversions are a much bigger problem than just "Org might of been converted!". Unless it's a sacrifice-to-convert kind of role, but then we're given a good warning in advance. And if that happens, then yes, feel free to ask Org all the questions you want. Until then, don't spread WIFOM, please.

What we know is that Bayer received an alignment PM from Org that said Org was a jester. We also know Org has an ability to reveal his alignment to another player. We also know Org hasn't fought to defend himself at all. If you put all this together, Org's a confirmed jester. I can't even believe I had to explain this to you. But feel free to explain how Org is not a jester. He's bargaining to get himself lynched for fuck's sake, what more evidence do you want?

Again, not a fact. Just another conclusion. You're stifling attempts at discussion, it seems. As I said, the setting may change and I think talk like this (coupled with plenty of hunting) will prevent us getting crippled by twists later on.

Again, if you have reason to suspect Org is converted, bring it forth. Like if a scum who sacs to convert dies or we kill a cult member or something like that, then yes, Org will be suspect #1. But until then, stick with the evidence we have in front of us that says Org is a jester, 100%.

Well of course if my assumptions are wrong the conclusions I've drawn from them are also going to be wrong. Of course, the only part of it that's a presumption is about Leafsnail, and I'm obviously not going to claim another players i confirmed if Leafsnail had to also be confirmed since Leafsnail isn't. The only reason that I even bring Leafsnail into the equation is that it drives another nail into the coffin of the "Pand's lying!" idea.

This doesn't even make sense to me. What are you saying?

I'm saying that Leafsnail's claim and suggestion of what the law means makes me suspect that said law pertains to lynching and will have no impact on any revealations related to Org. But what I'm also saying is that even if Leafsnail is lying and the law did pertain to Org, I'd still say Org is 100% confirmed Jester by any stretch of the imagination.

Neither are infallible. Pand may be, to an extent, but Bayer isn't. You're being deliberately naive here.

In what way is Bayer fallible? Lying? He's a townie, why would he lie? Being mistaken? What's there to be mistaken about a PM that says "Org is a jester". There may have been a ton of words, but the keywords are "Org" and "jester", no matter how it was worded. And in any case, if Bayer was confused, he would of asked questions until he wasn't.

In fact, I'm actually curious now. How could the PM Pand sent Org possibly be so misleading as to cause SirBayer to confuse Org's alignment for jester? Jester isn't the kind of thing you accidentally put into a paragraph without meaning to. Town or survivor, maybe I could see it as a stretch, but jester? No way. Why would Pand include "jester" in an alignment-stating PM without that person's alignment being jester?

Who says we have a killer? Why are you assuming there is one? Where are you getting this info?

MC?

Eh, I'm kind of assuming that in a large role-heavy game like this that we have all or nearly all the kinds of roles there are. But yes, we may very well not have a killer. Note how I said killer, by the way, since an sk wants Org dead just as much as the townies do at a certain point. But whatever, it's not a big deal. I just don't want to give Org the satisfaction of winning with a lynch, really. But if we have to, we have to.

You've explained your reasons for voting Book/myself and I don't find them very compelling or even justified. You're not doing a good job explaining why fishing for information from the confirmed jester who's making suggestions that he knows something is a bad thing at all. Is it? Why? That's all Book/myself was doing.

Since you haven't come up with a satisfactory answer to that question, you're instead quoting from the scumhunting bible to try and build a case there, by suggesting that Book/I is/am being passive, and OMGUSing, and other mafia jargon, without really meaning it or it being applicable.

Basically, you don't have a case.


I have a question for everyone. Is anybody a zombie?

I know I am.

And I know Org is.

And I've got a feeling that the conditional for today has something to do with that.

One thing: What's an MC?

Mass claim.

So you don't see how scumhunting a jester can generate WIFOM?

Nice passiveness, IronyOwl. FoS Jim Groovester.

(Note that even when calling someone else out for passiveness Mr. Person Fos'es you.)

Is zombie cult? And why are you telling us?

No, as far as I know. My alignment's the same. Just my role is completely disabled.

I mentioned it because I want to know if there's anything anybody knows about it. I also wanted to see how widespread it was, because if it's fairly widespread then there will be several players interested in reversing it somehow.

Jim, any more information you can share would be appreciated.

Eh, I've already said about as much as I know.

I was targeted sometime during the day yesterday. I was stabbed and turned into a zombie. The way Org talks it's obvious he's a zombie too.

So you don't see how scumhunting a jester can generate WIFOM?

You act like that was Book's intent.

Of course everything that comes out from Org's mouth is going to be WIFOM, but there might be useful information in what he has to say regardless.

Shame on Book/me for trying to get it out. Especially since I've got stake in what Org might have to say.

That's the exact problem. You're generating WIFOM. Intentionally. And knowingly. That's not even getting into the fact Org doesn't know shit and is just leading you on to get you to vote him. Also, even if he did know something, he'd have no real reason to say anything about it. He'd have to trust the town while we have no reason to go through with a lynch on him. None whatsoever.

So tell me, how is this information on what the law is more important than finding scum? Because it certainly seems to be more important to you and was definitely more important to Book.

Dear God, you act like sharing information is a bad thing.

And apparently I'm not scumhunting even though I've given you reasons for why you're scum. I find that pretty strange.

You're just grasping at anything you can, Mr.Person.

You're not hunting, you're just shitting here saying I'm scum. Where have you scumhunted? Ever? You've defended yourself from me and decided I was scum. Have you given a reasoning for why my reasoning is bad? Nope. Have you looked at anybody else? Nope. This was the same shit Book did, which makes me think you have a similar reason for wanting to know about the laws and don't care much about who's scum.

You're trying to acquire dubious information at the expense of scumhunting to get accurate, always useful information. The law we have here doesn't matter. Let me repeat that, it does't matter. Because no matter what, optimal play here is to scumhunt for and lynch scum. So why are you choosing to spend so much time learning about the law and not spending any time scumhunting?

Jim contributes a little while posting, but Mr. Person just tries to get him to shut up the whole time.

[Jim Groovester]

2) I do know why he did that, yes.

Jim Groovester: Please explain.

I did. The zombie thing is the whole reason why Book bothered talking to Org at all, and I've said everything I know about it.

I'm making assumptions here, of course, since I don't know for certain that that's the reason Book had. But I can only answer so much.

*Book's Jester Confirmation Contradiction: This, I have to say I really don't like.  At all.  It doesn't make me feel very much into trusting Jimbook.

You mean the contradiction lordnincompoop pointed out here?

Yeah, I don't know what the fuck Book was doing. Org's pretty much a confirmed jester, and Mr.Person saying that is no reason to call him scum.

Jim: Here are some quotes of you and Mr. Person doing nothing but picking at each other.

Yes, but am I exclusively focusing on Mr.Person?

No.

Ergo, I'm not tunneling, and you're just making shit up.

I still don't understand your suspicions at all. Why is Mr.Person now worthy of your vote?

[Jack A T]

2) I do know why he did that, yes.

Jim Groovester: Please explain.

I did. The zombie thing is the whole reason why Book bothered talking to Org at all, and I've said everything I know about it.

I'm making assumptions here, of course, since I don't know for certain that that's the reason Book had. But I can only answer so much.

Ah.  Acceptable.  Can't really expect you to be able to read your predecessor's mind.

*Book's Jester Confirmation Contradiction: This, I have to say I really don't like.  At all.  It doesn't make me feel very much into trusting Jimbook.

You mean the contradiction lordnincompoop pointed out here?

Yeah, I don't know what the fuck Book was doing. Org's pretty much a confirmed jester, and Mr.Person saying that is no reason to call him scum.

Yep, that contradiction.  Response noted.

[Zrk2]

I still don't understand your suspicions at all. Why is Mr.Person now worthy of your vote?

Because he was trying to get you to stop presenting reasons, claiming they were WIFOM, usually, trying to present a case is looked upon with favour by town. He tries to get you to stop posting, claiming WIFOM, but never providing specific examples.

[Leafsnail]

No. I'm voting Person because it appears he's jumped on Book without much of a case on him. I don't think I saw the contradiction mentioned anywhere.

Didn't Mr.Person stress confirmed?  Like, in capitals?  The word which Book used to describe Org's jestership status?

If you're annoyed that he didn't explain why voting the confirmed jester was scummy... well, you didn't really explain why him voting Book was scummy either.  "Not much of a case" is a very vague accusation.

Well of course I know the fantasy definition, but I want to know what it is in the context of a mafia game. This isn't the first time I've heard of it.

On #mafia:

Lich (sk; super-rare; 7+ players): You can kill a player each night. If you are killed, your soul will transfer to BUDDY1, and they will become a lich in your place. However, if they are already dead, your soul will be lost. Actions: kill

It's a ridiculously overpowered and swingy role.

Jim: Here are some quotes of you and Mr. Person doing nothing but picking at each other.

...This appears to be a complete non sequiter.  You just quote lots of arguing and point at one of the participants apparently at random (on an accusation related to tunneling... which isn't a scumtell?).

Yes, but am I exclusively focusing on Mr.Person?

No.

Ergo, I'm not tunneling, and you're just making shit up.

I still don't understand your suspicions at all. Why is Mr.Person now worthy of your vote?

Why say this?  He specifically said later in the post that he thought you weren't tunneling.

Ottofar, you've been CONTINUING TO ACTIVE LURK HORRIBLY.  Give some goddamn content rather than posting just enough nonsense to stay off a lurker tracker prod list.

[Pandarsenic]

Reminder: My mod-extend does not prevent manual player extensions. Since 2 players claim they're gone until Monday, I don't see any problem with extending further if you all feel it's necessary.

[Org]

HEE HEE HEE.
Derp.
Org.

[Jim Groovester]

Why say this?  He specifically said later in the post that he thought you weren't tunneling.

Did he?

He said I contributed (a little, pffft). He didn't say I wasn't tunneling.

Well of course I know the fantasy definition, but I want to know what it is in the context of a mafia game. This isn't the first time I've heard of it.

On #mafia:

Lich (sk; super-rare; 7+ players): You can kill a player each night. If you are killed, your soul will transfer to BUDDY1, and they will become a lich in your place. However, if they are already dead, your soul will be lost. Actions: kill

It's a ridiculously overpowered and swingy role.

Yeah, okay. Org's bluffing about that too.

[Org]

It isnt that role anyway.

[Zrk2]

Jim: Here are some quotes of you and Mr. Person doing nothing but picking at each other.

...This appears to be a complete non sequiter.  You just quote lots of arguing and point at one of the participants apparently at random (on an accusation related to tunneling... which isn't a scumtell?).

Actually, that was the entirety of their posts over two pages.

[Mr.Person]

Well, that's a lot to take in. For now, let me clarify something. Somebody brought up that I don't want Jim to talk or something like that. That's actually quite true. I want him unable to talk due to being dead. I want everybody else to lynch him. What exactly is scummy about that? I'm really starting to get confused here.

[Zrk2]

From my recollection your only reason for not wanting him to talk was because of something about WIFOM, but nothing else. A bit of WIFOM is bad, but not worth lynching, unless you have something else to go with it.

[IronyOwl]

Well, that's a lot to take in. For now, let me clarify something. Somebody brought up that I don't want Jim to talk or something like that. That's actually quite true. I want him unable to talk due to being dead. I want everybody else to lynch him. What exactly is scummy about that? I'm really starting to get confused here.

I think they were referring to not wanting him to try to get info from Org for any reason.

Speaking of which, could you restate your case on Jimbook? As far as I can recall, it's that he was trying to get Org, a confirmed jester, lynched, and that he was trying to get information out of him. Is that true?