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Author Topic: Why Would You Do That?: A Mafia Misadventure: Game Over, nobody wins >:I  (Read 188684 times)

NativeForeigner

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Re: Why Would You Do That?: A Mafia Misadventure: Day 2, 13/15, 1 replace?
« Reply #345 on: March 16, 2011, 03:37:33 pm »

Quick note: Think about it. How the FUCK is Org supposed to tell us anything if we lynch him? He just wants to be lynched.

Also, finals.  Bah.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Why Would You Do That?: A Mafia Misadventure: Day 2, 13/15, 1 replace?
« Reply #346 on: March 16, 2011, 03:39:08 pm »

Sorry about the lack of post yesterday.

Okay, testing time. Pandarsenic
Dear god.  I know it's a cliché, but you're contributing less than Org.  And ignoring my question.

Really, Book? You want to lynch the CONFIRMED jester? Really? Really? REALLY?

Seems like a bit of an overreaction, Person. Your jump, and obtuse attack (if it can even be called that) are very suspicious.

Though this is an option, I opt to believe that we will have scumhunted enough by then, so I don't think this needs to be explored in further detail.

was confirm that Org is indeed a Jester...

I say you are scum for claiming CERTAINTY that Org is CONFIRMED anything, REALLY.

Haha, what
So uh... you identified the contradiction in Book's statement, but vote Mr.Person for picking up on it?
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Zrk2

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Re: Why Would You Do That?: A Mafia Misadventure: Day 2, 13/15, 1 replace?
« Reply #347 on: March 16, 2011, 04:01:19 pm »

Jim, Org is near confirmed jester after the guy who said he got a PM saying he was jester got lynched and flipped town. Book and Mr.Person are having a bit of a kerfuffle with each other. Shenanigans are inbound.
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Ottofar

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Re: Why Would You Do That?: A Mafia Misadventure: Day 2, 13/15, 1 replace?
« Reply #348 on: March 16, 2011, 04:23:25 pm »

Hm. I'll contribute tomorrow or something.

lordnincompoop

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Well, Firefox ate my wall. Dammit.

So uh... you identified the contradiction in Book's statement, but vote Mr.Person for picking up on it?

No. I'm voting Person because it appears he's jumped on Book without much of a case on him. I don't think I saw the contradiction mentioned anywhere.

Well see, you're wasting your time by scumhunting a player whose alignment is already publicly known. You're also trying to scumhunt one of the hardest-to-read players we have when he's NOT a jester trying to obfuscate, much less when he actually is. And even if he isn't, he's obviously going to try to act like one, so you're left with an absurdly difficult scumhunt that hinges on an impossible situation happening.

Are you saying we should ignore him from this point on?

That is a potentially very dangerous decision. This is an unpredictable game, and Org may be aligned one way or another that we don't know about. All we know is Bayer defended Org, who flipped town, and that Org's power is to reveal his alignment. We can draw that conclusion, but I'm certainly not going to sit and ignore him for the rest of the game. This can be a cover (a risky one), and one of the factions may even have recruitment powers, which would make Org a perfect target for that.

Pand may make "lies" of omission, if I'm getting this right. He hasn't stated anything regarding the role besides the fact that he won't tell outright lies, which is quite ambiguous to me.

You're the one causing doubt about a known fact, which is why I'm voting you. There's no way you're so dense that you'll decide that any of the confirmed townie, confirmed truthful mod, and confirmed neutral spectators are lying unless you're scum. Your statements confuse me, actually, since they're absurd. You know damn well Org is a jester since you know SirBayer is town, you know the spoiling spectators are neutral, and you know Pand doesn't lie. That's pretty fucking bulletproof if you ask me.

Again, not a fact. Just another conclusion. You're stifling attempts at discussion, it seems. As I said, the setting may change and I think talk like this (coupled with plenty of hunting) will prevent us getting crippled by twists later on.

Well of course if my assumptions are wrong the conclusions I've drawn from them are also going to be wrong. Of course, the only part of it that's a presumption is about Leafsnail, and I'm obviously not going to claim another players i confirmed if Leafsnail had to also be confirmed since Leafsnail isn't. The only reason that I even bring Leafsnail into the equation is that it drives another nail into the coffin of the "Pand's lying!" idea.

This doesn't even make sense to me. What are you saying?

You say Org is a reserve lynch in case you have no other targets, yet do nothing to actually get those other targets. That makes you absurdly passive. That makes you scum.
Sometimes targets just come and present themselves, don't they, Person? I say you are scum for claiming CERTAINTY that Org is CONFIRMED anything, REALLY. How are you so certain? Why are you willing to go foaming at the mouth spewing bullshit arguments to prevent anyone even questioning his word as unassailable FACT? No. The more likely explanation is that you're scum, and are either making sure your buddy's status as unlynchable remains, or want to steer the town to a mislynch that'll get you closer to victory: another townie instead of a jester.


Again, I'm not advocating we lynch Org. I'm advocating someone fucks him over during the night, and I'm casting doubts about his jester claim unless he becomes very generous with information that the town needs.

Because you're questioning the word of SirBayer and Pand, both of whom are infallible. And you know they're infallible since they're publicly known to be infallible.

Neither are infallible. Pand may be, to an extent, but Bayer isn't. You're being deliberately naive here.

Oddly enough, I also wouldn't mind seeing Org dead before lylo, but I would be a million times happier to see a scum get shot during the night. I wouldn't mind townie dying during the night as long as our killer eventually hits a scum or two. The only reason Org needs to go is that the scum might choose to risk lynching him. On the other hand, I'm confident in Pand's abilitiy to balance the game so that Org being a jester isn't a lylo-breaker for the scum. Is my confidence misplaced? Possibly. But we'll see. There's a load of shit that will mess up the scum's plans if they choose to reveal themselves to a bunch of strangers. For that reason, if Org's alive at lylo, I vote we don't MC.

Who says we have a killer? Why are you assuming there is one? Where are you getting this info?

MC?

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Pandarsenic

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Re: Why Would You Do That?: A Mafia Misadventure: Day 2, 13/15, 1 replace?
« Reply #350 on: March 16, 2011, 04:42:35 pm »

To clarify, because you all seem to be confused:

NOTHING I say to you will be false. I may state technical truths, I may leave out information you shouldn't know, and I may simply say I can't tell you. I won't tell you something false. Law alterations are not accounted for.
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Org

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Re: Why Would You Do That?: A Mafia Misadventure: Day 2, 13/15, 1 replace?
« Reply #351 on: March 16, 2011, 04:47:36 pm »

Quick note: Think about it. How the FUCK is Org supposed to tell us anything if we lynch him? He just wants to be lynched.

Also, finals.  Bah.
Right before the lynch I can tell you what it is. If not, ya know, random kill all abound.
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Jack A T

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Re: Why Would You Do That?: A Mafia Misadventure: Day 2, 13/15, 1 replace?
« Reply #352 on: March 16, 2011, 05:25:51 pm »

Jim Groovester: Once you've read the thread, mind answering a few questions:
*Who do you suspect?
*What is your opinion of your predecessor's proposed deal with Org?
*How about Mr. Person's arguments against you/Book?
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lordnincompoop

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Re: Why Would You Do That?: A Mafia Misadventure: Day 2, 13/15, 1 replace?
« Reply #353 on: March 16, 2011, 05:29:22 pm »

To clarify, because you all seem to be confused:

NOTHING I say to you will be false. I may state technical truths, I may leave out information you shouldn't know, and I may simply say I can't tell you. I won't tell you something false. Law alterations are not accounted for.

Because this seems to to have been stated explicitly: Will you be telling us the whole truth, and when something is omitted, tell us about it?
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Pandarsenic

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Re: Why Would You Do That?: A Mafia Misadventure: Day 2, 13/15, 1 replace?
« Reply #354 on: March 16, 2011, 06:24:09 pm »

That depends on the situation. Asking will usually yield a "Cannot say," though.

However, you may always ask for clarification about publicly sort-of-known rules (e.g. how Laws function). You do have to ask something fairly specific, though.
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Jim Groovester

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Re: Why Would You Do That?: A Mafia Misadventure: Day 2, 13/15, 1 replace?
« Reply #355 on: March 16, 2011, 06:35:23 pm »

Jim Groovester: Once you've read the thread, mind answering a few questions:
*Who do you suspect?
*What is your opinion of your predecessor's proposed deal with Org?
*How about Mr. Person's arguments against you/Book?

In order:

1) I suspect Zrk2 and Mr.Person. Zrk2 for voting for SirBayer for crappy reason. I just read through the whole thread right now so I can't give you any specifics, but overall, it came off as very scummy to me. Mr.Person for the same thing, and for jumping on Book/myself for talking with Org. I figure he doesn't have anything else to go off of so he's jumping on the easiest target.

2) I do know why he did that, yes.

3) There's no real point to the argument. Mr.Person is scum, and is trying to look active doing whatever he can.
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IronyOwl

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Re: Why Would You Do That?: A Mafia Misadventure: Day 2, 13/15, 1 replace?
« Reply #356 on: March 16, 2011, 07:53:39 pm »

Pandar: What is the difference between a Conditional and a State?
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Pandarsenic

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Re: Why Would You Do That?: A Mafia Misadventure: Day 2, 13/15, 1 replace?
« Reply #357 on: March 16, 2011, 09:12:46 pm »

A Conditional is an IF-THEN sequence; IF the appropriate condition specific to the particular Conditional Law occurs, THEN it has a particular consequence which may be good or bad to various individuals.
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Mr.Person

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@lordnincompoop and Jim Groovester: My reasoning for voting Book was that he scumhunted a confirmed jester. Now, even he admitted that Org was a jester at the time. He also said he'd be happy to lynch the jester. All of this just screams that he doesn't want to scumhunt. That's a major scumtell right there.

Furthermore, Book did no actual scumhunting beyond talking with Org. That further implies he doesn't want to scumhunt. He only attacked me after I attacked him. I won't say OMGUS, but it was very reactive and passive. We all know passiveness is the way of the scum.

If you still think my argument is crap, I'd at least appreciate it if you said WHY you think it's crap instead of just going "oh, he's scum because his argument is bad" and walking off. Thank you.

Well see, you're wasting your time by scumhunting a player whose alignment is already publicly known. You're also trying to scumhunt one of the hardest-to-read players we have when he's NOT a jester trying to obfuscate, much less when he actually is. And even if he isn't, he's obviously going to try to act like one, so you're left with an absurdly difficult scumhunt that hinges on an impossible situation happening.

Are you saying we should ignore him from this point on?

That is a potentially very dangerous decision. This is an unpredictable game, and Org may be aligned one way or another that we don't know about. All we know is Bayer defended Org, who flipped town, and that Org's power is to reveal his alignment. We can draw that conclusion, but I'm certainly not going to sit and ignore him for the rest of the game. This can be a cover (a risky one), and one of the factions may even have recruitment powers, which would make Org a perfect target for that.

Pand may make "lies" of omission, if I'm getting this right. He hasn't stated anything regarding the role besides the fact that he won't tell outright lies, which is quite ambiguous to me.

Yes, we really are best off ignoring him. Everything he says is WIFOM. Yes, his role might change, but it probably won't. And besides, Org is probably the worst player imaginable to turn into scum. Everybody already wants him dead, it doesn't give the scum a net advantage in votes, and doesn't gain the scum a useful night power. Wowies. If the scum did have a conversion, the best play would be to use it on night of mylo or lylo on a non-Org player to gain vote dominance. That's either tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, depending on how many scum we have. Basically what I'm saying is that conversions are a much bigger problem than just "Org might of been converted!". Unless it's a sacrifice-to-convert kind of role, but then we're given a good warning in advance. And if that happens, then yes, feel free to ask Org all the questions you want. Until then, don't spread WIFOM, please.

What we know is that Bayer received an alignment PM from Org that said Org was a jester. We also know Org has an ability to reveal his alignment to another player. We also know Org hasn't fought to defend himself at all. If you put all this together, Org's a confirmed jester. I can't even believe I had to explain this to you. But feel free to explain how Org is not a jester. He's bargaining to get himself lynched for fuck's sake, what more evidence do you want?


Again, not a fact. Just another conclusion. You're stifling attempts at discussion, it seems. As I said, the setting may change and I think talk like this (coupled with plenty of hunting) will prevent us getting crippled by twists later on.

Again, if you have reason to suspect Org is converted, bring it forth. Like if a scum who sacs to convert dies or we kill a cult member or something like that, then yes, Org will be suspect #1. But until then, stick with the evidence we have in front of us that says Org is a jester, 100%.

Well of course if my assumptions are wrong the conclusions I've drawn from them are also going to be wrong. Of course, the only part of it that's a presumption is about Leafsnail, and I'm obviously not going to claim another players i confirmed if Leafsnail had to also be confirmed since Leafsnail isn't. The only reason that I even bring Leafsnail into the equation is that it drives another nail into the coffin of the "Pand's lying!" idea.

This doesn't even make sense to me. What are you saying?

I'm saying that Leafsnail's claim and suggestion of what the law means makes me suspect that said law pertains to lynching and will have no impact on any revealations related to Org. But what I'm also saying is that even if Leafsnail is lying and the law did pertain to Org, I'd still say Org is 100% confirmed Jester by any stretch of the imagination.

Neither are infallible. Pand may be, to an extent, but Bayer isn't. You're being deliberately naive here.

In what way is Bayer fallible? Lying? He's a townie, why would he lie? Being mistaken? What's there to be mistaken about a PM that says "Org is a jester". There may have been a ton of words, but the keywords are "Org" and "jester", no matter how it was worded. And in any case, if Bayer was confused, he would of asked questions until he wasn't.

In fact, I'm actually curious now. How could the PM Pand sent Org possibly be so misleading as to cause SirBayer to confuse Org's alignment for jester? Jester isn't the kind of thing you accidentally put into a paragraph without meaning to. Town or survivor, maybe I could see it as a stretch, but jester? No way. Why would Pand include "jester" in an alignment-stating PM without that person's alignment being jester?

Who says we have a killer? Why are you assuming there is one? Where are you getting this info?

MC?

Eh, I'm kind of assuming that in a large role-heavy game like this that we have all or nearly all the kinds of roles there are. But yes, we may very well not have a killer. Note how I said killer, by the way, since an sk wants Org dead just as much as the townies do at a certain point. But whatever, it's not a big deal. I just don't want to give Org the satisfaction of winning with a lynch, really. But if we have to, we have to.
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lordnincompoop

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Re: Why Would You Do That?: A Mafia Misadventure: Day 2, 13/15, 1 replace?
« Reply #359 on: March 17, 2011, 02:54:16 am »

One thing: What's an MC?
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