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[Darvi]

Bayer, I think you got something backwards there. We ( or at least I) didn't vote for herping derping. We voted him because he kept doing nothing else. It's active lurking at its finest. And you defending him makes you scummy too. Period.

As far as I can tell, you're saying you voted Org for being scummy, and SirBayer for defending scum.  Doesn't this mean that Bayer's scumminess is contingent on Org's scumminess, and that you should continue to vote Org?

Who do you think is scummier? The lurker or the guy who goes out of his way to defend the lurker?

In addition, I can't read that intention into your post that votes Org:

Org: Derp. Derpaderpaherp. Stop it.

Would you mind explaining?

Sure. I tried communicating to Org in a language I hoped he would understand. Also, I wanted to show him just how ridiculous it was.

[Toaster]

SirBayer:

No. No, I'm not going to repeat myself for everyone's convenience. You get this much: Because this is what Org does. And I'd rather take the like 10/13 chance that Org is a town or something other than a scum than just blindly jump onto him and lose two townies.

Two questions:

Where did you get the count of three scum?

Where did you get thirteen at all?  There are fifteen people playing.

Let's avoid useless statistics this game, please.


Book:  You never answered me.

Book:  I see a lot of screwing around and not much hunting from you.  What do you expect the chaos that Pandar promises will do to your scum hunting strategy?

I maintain that I haven't seen much hunting from you beyond Bayer, so you get this question too:  Who is your #2 pick right now?


Argembarger:  Do you think Org will distract from good D1 hunting, or do you think he'll help create discussion topics (indirectly)?


Native:  I haven't seen any hunting from you at all.  What's your opinion of Org, Bayer, and Darvi?  Who are your top two picks?


Eduren, RedWarrior, and Tyberix:  Do you have win conditions?

[SirBayer]

You might as well not even talk to me anymore SirBayer, I have never been more convinced of anyone's scuminess. The only reasons you have to defend another player right now have been stated quite well by Zrk2. You're scum defending scum or scum buddying a non-scum. There are no other options. If you were a townie, you wouldn't have anything to make you so sure of Org's towniness because all he's dropped are nulltells and scumtells.

What's making me more sure is your flailing, panicky behavior about getting voted and your attempt to link me and Zrk2 without any reasoning at all as to why you're doing so. The fact you avoided answering what makes you think Org is town is just another nail. I perfectly understand thinking Org isn't scum, but you went right passed that and started defending him. Now, I dunno about anybody else, but I have no reason to defend another player unless I think that other player is a townie. So logically you think Org is a townie.

You also didn't deny that when I first stated you thought he was a townie, so I'm forced to assume you agree. Feel free to deny thinking Org is a townie, but it makes your defense of him all the more worse if you do. You're in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. You're either defending Org because you think he's town without any real reason to think that or you're defending Org without thinking he's town. Both positions are scummy.

There's also this bit:

Also I'm not exactly sure why you're reacting when I never accused you. Jumpy, a bit? Your random vote is all fine and good. But you certainly seem to feel like you've done something wrong, or at least like I'm accusing you of such a thing. Now review that post. Did I ever say anything about you or your vote, yet again? The answer's no.

So, Mr. Person, what's your deal?

I don't even know where to begin. Yes, you never accused me of anything. No, you're the one that's jumpy. I accused you of defending Org without any reason to do so. Then you start trying to attack me for umm... defending myself? I'm not sure considering you're attacking me for something that hasn't happened. This is the first time all game you've mentioned me, so I'm just frankly confused as to what you're talking about here.

@Darvi: Don't answer for other people, especially if it's a question the other player hasn't answered in the first place. Sure, that's why you suspect Org, but it may or may not be the reasons other people suspect Org.

@Org: What do you think of SirBayer defense of you?

@Leafsnail: Scum "buddying" other scum is a classic scum move like OMGUS and lurking. Problem is, like those two, nobody does it anymore because it seems obvious. The idea is that if scum A defends scum B, all the townies might be convinced by scum A's argument that scum B is town, so they won't vote scum B. Can't believe you didn't think of that.

Well, meesir Person, I have a question.

At what point did I name you? Can you find a post in which I accused you of anything until you suddenly jumped and said "OH NO HE IS ACCUSING ME OF BANDWAGON"? Can you find me a post in which I even mentioned you?

You yourself say no.

So why were you defending yourself from me?

[/color=red]Unvote, vote Mr. Person.[/color] Why would you post like five paragraphs of why I'm scum when I only touched you once? A paragraph worth of information and you jump out of your shoes like I've suddenly targeted you.

A reminder:

Then you start trying to attack me for umm... defending myself?

Because clearly random voting Org is a policy lynch on him. Hell, I never said policy lynch at all.

Why did you defend yourself from an accusation that was never placed on you? You felt it necessary to bring up the fact that you weren't "policy-lynching." Why? I never mentioned you. I never looked at you. You random-voted him like you said and then just assumed that I was accusing you of something.

Why?

SirBayer:

No. No, I'm not going to repeat myself for everyone's convenience. You get this much: Because this is what Org does. And I'd rather take the like 10/13 chance that Org is a town or something other than a scum than just blindly jump onto him and lose two townies.

Two questions:

Where did you get the count of three scum?

Where did you get thirteen at all?  There are fifteen people playing.

Let's avoid useless statistics this game, please.

Err. Miscount. 25% being scum as I recall. Is it 33%? I dunno.

IMPORTANT DETAIL ON HOW THIS GAME IS GETTING CRAZY

I received a PM from Pandarsenic. I understand a little bit more about how this is going, and I see that I was wrong in many instances - yes, this is unusual behavior for Org. I think his role had an effect on me, and I'm not entirely sure if I can divulge what I've been told. Or if it would even be wise to, under the circumstances. I need to talk to Pandar about that first matter, though, so I'll come back with some sort of idea of how I should handle this.

[SirBayer]

Whoops. Unvote, vote Mr. Person.

[Toaster]

Bayer:  His role had an effect on you?  You mean Org's role?  How would you know his role, short of being scumbuddies?


Pandar:  Is this game open PM?  I'm guessing no, but it's worth asking at this point.

[SirBayer]

Bayer:  His role had an effect on you?  You mean Org's role?  How would you know his role, short of being scumbuddies?

Org's role had an effect on me. Again I'm not quite yet sure if I can divulge what I was informed of, nor if it would be wise or beneficial to say anything. I just thought you ought to know it had happened.

[SirBayer]

Another point - we can't be entirely sure that that's even what happened. Pandar promised to be honest, but the effect could be misleading or otherwise inaccurate. It fits with what I've seen so far, though.

Speaking of which - that Org quote. That was so definitely forged. >_> Definitely.

But seriously, when did Org start being useful? That is seriously new since I last stopped playing the Mafias.

[Toaster]

Was it a friendly-neighbor type effect?

[Jokerman-EXE]

This is stupid.

Org is playing like Org does, and just like every game that Org plays like Org does, everyone else is being an absolute moron and doing what they do, namely trying to push a lynch that, statistically speaking, almost never takes place. You know why? It's because Org's entire playstyle revolves around making everything a giant goddam mess and obscuring shit until people stop bothering to pay attention to him.

SirBayer is not defending Org, he's defending what I view as the completely sane notion that you all are wasting your time, and the majority of D1, on trying to attack Org because he likes to say, "Herp derpy derp herp."

Fucking stop doing it.

In every single game, someone goes after Org for being Org. It's not even close to being an excuse for scumhunting; it's essentially active lurking, because you're never going to get a response - you're going to sit there with your thumbs up your ass saying, "oh man org dinnit say nuffin useful, guess i cant argue with him so ill just leave my voet."

That's where I stand. Yes, useful arguments have been gleaned since then. But if you're only going after Org after this post, then you're active-lurking scum in my book.

Moving on: Mr.Person, this was quite interesting:

You might as well not even talk to me anymore SirBayer, I have never been more convinced of anyone's scuminess. The only reasons you have to defend another player right now have been stated quite well by Zrk2. You're scum defending scum or scum buddying a non-scum. There are no other options. If you were a townie, you wouldn't have anything to make you so sure of Org's towniness because all he's dropped are nulltells and scumtells.

What's making me more sure is your flailing, panicky behavior about getting voted and your attempt to link me and Zrk2 without any reasoning at all as to why you're doing so. The fact you avoided answering what makes you think Org is town is just another nail. I perfectly understand thinking Org isn't scum, but you went right passed that and started defending him. Now, I dunno about anybody else, but I have no reason to defend another player unless I think that other player is a townie. So logically you think Org is a townie.

You also didn't deny that when I first stated you thought he was a townie, so I'm forced to assume you agree. Feel free to deny thinking Org is a townie, but it makes your defense of him all the more worse if you do. You're in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. You're either defending Org because you think he's town without any real reason to think that or you're defending Org without thinking he's town. Both positions are scummy.

Bolded my talking points here.

1. You're admitting to explicit tunneling on D1, stating that you won't even listen to what he has to say because you're now absolutely positive that he's scum? This means that if he's town, you've wasted all of D1 tunneling him and being stubborn (bad for town). If you're scum, and you're trying to push a lynch on him, then you're a big jerk and that's also bad for town. If he's scum, which I don't see how you think he is at this point, then congrats, but you still spent all of your time on him and no one else.

2. You and Zrk2 are about as buddied up as Bayer and Org seem to be in your eyes. You're teaming up to attack Bayer, whereas Org hasn't even acknowledged that he's noticed Bayer. So why shouldn't we be looking at you for what you're doing, exactly? Covert buddying is just as much of a scumtell as overt buddying, isn't it? The two of you are working together to make a stronger case against someone with no real evidence against him - just that you think he's defending someone on D1. And somehow, that was enough of a reason for both of you to vote Bayer? The only way I can see that the two of you would have any reason to work together is that you're both scum, know he's town, and picked him out for your D1 lynch.

3. You're forcing Bayer into that situation, you know. You're making an assumption (which may or may not be true, I'm not sure of that myself) and you're basing a large portion of your argument on it without any basis. And as I said before, you're essentially doing the same thing. You're voting Bayer because you either think he's scummy with pretty much jack shit for reasoning other than "he has no reason to defend Org." You have no reason to attack him for it unless you don't like the idea of a player thinking another player is town. One player's vote isn't going to sway things all that much - but two votes, like yours and Zrk2, working together? That's starting to look like a different story.

I don't much care what happens to SirBayer. That would be a load of great information at this point. But you, Mr.Person, are voting him for reasons that I find absolutely fallacious and hypocritical. Unacceptable.

[SirBayer]

Was it a friendly-neighbor type effect?

I believe so.

Jow:

Do note that Zrk2 hasn't voted me yet. FoS'ed, but as far as I know his vote is still on Org.

Still haven't gotten a hold of Pandar to ask him if I can say what I've seen.

[Tyberix]

Watching this masterpiece from the shadows...

Spoiled Spectators will be given the appropriate information as of the first death of a player.

Answer to the question above.

[Darvi]

Joker. I don't mind his derping. He can herp as much as he wants to. Provided he dös something constructive. And He isn't. And if him getting lynched never Happens, then it's because of people like you and Bayer who insist on Not lynching him. I think at least One of you are scum trying to use the cofusion he creates to hide yourselves from the scumhunting.(pfp)

[Zrk2]

SirBayer is not defending Org, he's defending what I view as the completely sane notion that you all are wasting your time, and the majority of D1, on trying to attack Org because he likes to say, "Herp derpy derp herp."

Fucking stop doing it.

In every single game, someone goes after Org for being Org. It's not even close to being an excuse for scumhunting; it's essentially active lurking, because you're never going to get a response - you're going to sit there with your thumbs up your ass saying, "oh man org dinnit say nuffin useful, guess i cant argue with him so ill just leave my voet."

We vote him because he is totally useless, moreso this game. I wouldn't vote for him if he contributes, but his sum total contribution so for has been

'herp derp

derpa herp

derp herp fucking derp.'

It's totally useless, and anti-town.

[Leafsnail]

I don't really have a problem with people trying to get a policy lynch in some cases.  Heck, I'm not entirely opposed to lynching Org this game for his idiocy (problem with that being is that you get far less information from the lynch) But when you're making what is effectively a policy vote while not making it clear that you're doing so... that's scummy.  I thought I better clarify that.

Sir Bayer, in case you missed it, I opened voting on you, but moved it over to Org for his playing like a bad imitation of himself. You didn't seem to warrant it, but you seem to be trying to draw votes onto you, to take the pressure off Org.

This is a pretty bizarre allegation.  I don't think I've ever seen scum try this day one (mainly because it's a completely stupid idea).  I guess you're at least calling a spade a spade though.

@Leafsnail: Scum "buddying" other scum is a classic scum move like OMGUS and lurking. Problem is, like those two, nobody does it anymore because it seems obvious. The idea is that if scum A defends scum B, all the townies might be convinced by scum A's argument that scum B is town, so they won't vote scum B. Can't believe you didn't think of that.

That's not buddying, though.  Buddying specifically implies that you're trying to get someone on your side (which is pointless if you're both scum unless you're WIFOMing in a really retarded way).  I guess you could accuse him of shielding his scumbuddy instead, but that's completely different.

You might as well not even talk to me anymore SirBayer, I have never been more convinced of anyone's scuminess. The only reasons you have to defend another player right now have been stated quite well by Zrk2. You're scum defending scum or scum buddying a non-scum. There are no other options. If you were a townie, you wouldn't have anything to make you so sure of Org's towniness because all he's dropped are nulltells and scumtells.

This is not a good mentality to get into unless you're a witch hunter ("He's a witch!  Anyone who disagrees is also a witch!").  Even if you're 100% convinced that you'd never defend anyone unless you're scum, you can't extrapolate that to say that "Noone would ever defend anyone unless they're scum".

Who do you think is scummier? The lurker or the guy who goes out of his way to defend the lurker?

It depends on what reasoning you're using.  As far as I can tell, you're saying he's scummy for defending scum.  If that actually is your reasoning, you should be voting Org, as the reasoning is invalid unless Org is scum.

You could also be saying that defending a lurker, town or scum is scummy, but I think I'd need more of an explanation on this one.  Specifically, since when are scum averse to bandwagons on townies?

Sure. I tried communicating to Org in a language I hoped he would understand. Also, I wanted to show him just how ridiculous it was.

Yeah, it showed him how ridiculous it was.  Yes, it could be seen as a policy vote (and possibly a justified one).  But I don't see how it states that you're voting him because you think he's scummy (something you're now claiming).  I'll ask you to look up: making a policy vote while trying to claim it isn't a policy vote is scummy, as it's entirely self image based.

[NativeForeigner]

Native:  I haven't seen any hunting from you at all.  What's your opinion of Org, Bayer, and Darvi?  Who are your top two picks?

I've been entirely too busy lately.

Org: The best choice for a lynch right now, IMO. He's acting even more derptastic this game and unless that changes, he needs to go. Bayer's and Jokerman's arguments against an Org lynch are utter bullshit and it's why Org keeps pulling the shit he does. "It's Org playing like Org, just leave him alone." Yeah, no.

Bayer: I'm getting a bit of a town vibe from Bayer. I don't think he'd be dumb enough to blatantly defend Org if he was scumbuddies with Org. I think he's only doing so because he feels the same way as Jokerman, and that doesn't necessarily make him scum just because I disagree with that.

Darvi:I have next to nothing on Darvi.

My top two picks are Org and Mr. Person. Org for reasons stated above and Mr. Person because of his explicit tunneling of Bayer.

Mr. Person: Could you please offer your reads on anyone else you might suspect at the moment? If you think SirBayer is scum, who do you think is his scumbuddy?