Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Jurph]

Its very easy to have a fort where everything goes right, but these forts do tend to be somewhat boring because everything works perfectly.

I've been putting my systems and process engineering background to work trying to design a fortress that minimizes the distance that a skilled worker is required to travel in order to perform his duties.  That means lots of very very OCD stockpile flow management... dozens of sheets of graph paper... and a work system that grinds to a halt when the haulers throw a kegger.

[NewsMuffin]

"Playing the game safe is relatively easy."

The way the quote says 'relatively', it means towards the game. The game has a hard learning cliff, but then you reach the top, it's easy to make a safe fort.

[Maklak]

I only had 3 forts so far, and every one was somewhat different, even tough I use multiple central stariways, square rooms, and have pretty standard design.

I've been putting my systems and process engineering background to work trying to design a fortress that minimizes the distance that a skilled worker is required to travel in order to perform his duties.  That means lots of very very OCD stockpile flow management... dozens of sheets of graph paper... and a work system that grinds to a halt when the haulers throw a kegger.

Interesting. Care to share? Did you apply "Just in time" principle to DF workshops? If so, no wonder it didn't work.

Myself I no longer care that much about efficiency of most industries. I have surplus of most of that junk anyway. For critical industreis (well, metal obviously) I found it helps most to have either a quantum dump or bigish stockpile for input material. Distance to output is not so important (as long as it is reasonable), because somebody will haul it away anyway. If I *really* wanted to kick some workshop into overdive, I'd also build nearby a bedroom, dining room, food pile, alcohol pile, and burrow my legendary worker there (other legendaries get their own workshops, and all worksops profiled to allow only legendaries, so medicore migrants don't interfere). The next best thing would be an industrial district: several worksops of the same type close to big input pile / quantum dump, several bedrooms, and dining room with food and alcohol, all as one burrow.

[Hyndis]

Workshop clutter works as a pacing mechanism. For example, brewing drinks.

You only need a few small stockpiles to store booze in. I have these scattered around my fortress so there is always a drink nearby, but each stockpile is very tiny, holding only a few barrels.

The stills are on full production at all times. This means that the stills will back up due to lack of stockpile space to store the booze, and the stills will be cluttered which results in slower production.

This means the more booze I have the slower new booze is made. The less booze I have the faster new booze is made. You can likewise use this principle for most other buildings.

[Nyxalinth]

Whether or not I am messing about with attempts at cool projects, magma or aquifers, I always seem to have interesting and quirky things going on in my forts.  Normally, I immediately abandon if there's sturgeons, pike etc. on the map, but this time I went with it.  One of my hunting dogs took out two pages' worth of nasty fish before he finally succumbed. (Good dog!)  Then, because I was a dumbass and forgot to move my outdoor crafts shop inside and the stockpile too, it got overrun with Rhesus Macaques, one of which stole a masterwork scepter.  When I got the message that Urist McStonecarver had gone insane, I held my breath...but  he only went stark raving mad.  then, the carpenter who was his friend was feeling unhappy, went for a walk by the stream, and got killed by pike.  And all of this happened in safe, sane, and otherwise happy fort, all in the first season before spring!

[Marthnn]

Workshop clutter works as a pacing mechanism. For example, brewing drinks.

You only need a few small stockpiles to store booze in. I have these scattered around my fortress so there is always a drink nearby, but each stockpile is very tiny, holding only a few barrels.

The stills are on full production at all times. This means that the stills will back up due to lack of stockpile space to store the booze, and the stills will be cluttered which results in slower production.

This means the more booze I have the slower new booze is made. The less booze I have the faster new booze is made. You can likewise use this principle for most other buildings.

Yes. That. Is. Awesome.

I kept wondering how to dispatch booze at several places, like near dining room, in prison cells, down at the magma forges... Right now I have a giant booze stockpile and several smaller ones, with "take from pile" orders to form a chain, but that's inefficient. For the booze to fill the last pile, it has to go through all the others with a hauling job each.

I will do the same with stone blocks, food, and who knows what else! Wish farming could clutter.

Limited stockpiles... who would've thought...

[Hyndis]

I do the same thing with crop stockpiles. For example, its extremely easy to grow plump helmets. Thus, I limit my plump helmet stockpile to 5x5 or 6x6 at the most. No other food stockpile accepts them. Any extras that don't fit just rot in the field.

This means my other food stockpiles always have space in them to accept meat, fish, plants that are either imported or gathered by herbalists, which means I have a much larger variety of food to make into roasts.

I mean, really, who needs 20,000 plump helmets? 500-1000ish is enough. You can grow them all year round. 

[obeliab]

"Playing the game safe is relatively easy."

The way the quote says 'relatively', it means towards the game. The game has a hard learning cliff, but then you reach the top, it's easy to make a safe fort.

I suppose.  I guess I was pushing for a more survivalist sense of the game as soon as I realized what was going on.  Harsh lands, no traps, no danger rooms, I moved towards that after about 3 forts of feeling invincible.  Even though 5 or so dwarves might die during a siege and we can't get to a reasonable source of wood until we breach the caverns, I don't define that as an "unhappy" fort.  I think the OP's vision might be better suited as, "Forts which are established on perfect-ish embark locations, utilizing every single defense mechanic, with care taken towards perfecting every controllable aspect of the game, are all alike; every fort which without all of these factors is unhappy in its own way."  Even then, there's design (which may or may not affect dwarves, but certainly affects the player's experience), ambush-then-tantrums, amount and types of of resources (particularly in the new version, which I have not yet moved into), landscape elements, and player patience and knowledge.  Also, doing things perfectly right can actually be quite a bit of work!  And, it's also true that if you take one, just one, aspect out of the equation (no military, or no traps, etc.), the situation gets a lot more complicated.

I guess I just don't like the idea that a "happy" fortress must seem like an identical experience to all other happy fortresses which have proceeded it.  If we're talking specifically about number of dwarven deaths, number of tantrums, amount of starvation and dehydration, and relative unpreparedness for attacks, then yeah, "happy" forts are somewhat all the same.  But there are so many more interesting variables that the statement "happy forts are all alike" is hard to justify.  That's the game to me... you don't have to necessarily spend 3 hours genning worlds until you get the perfect spot, you pick a spot and deal with what you don't have.  Or you do spend that much time, because you're totally into having the perfect fort.  Neither is better than the other, they're just different ways to play the same game.

I think the topic begs, "What is an unhappy fort?"  Does that mean dwarves are ready to tantrum, are tantruming, or are killing each other?  Is a happy fort one where all the dwarves are ecstatic, or one where every resource is available in abundance?  Unhappiness is a product of things I'm trying to fix; happiness is a result of things I've done.  Both are part of the experience, and both lead to their own difficulties... a terminally unhappy fort destroys itself, and a terminally happy fort may be abandoned by the player.

[Hyndis]

A fort that is perfect just has no conflict, and conflict is what makes any story interesting.

Its like any other game. If its too easy, the player cannot possibly lose, and all challenges are instantly and easily defeated with barely any effort the player will quickly lose interest in the game. Conversely if the game is so punishingly hard where failure is inevitable, only the most masochistic gamers will continue to play (see Battletoads).

You want something between those extremes. You want there to be conflict and challenge. You want the challenges to be difficult to overcome. However, you want the player to be able to overcome the challenges with a reasonable amount of time and effort.


Too easy is boring. Too hard is frustrating.

[Granite26]

obeliab: 

You might be happier to know that it's a bastardization of the first line of Anna Karenina; "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."

Certainly no one would say that all happy families are exactly alike, but the things that make them happy, and are happy about them, are the same in all families.

[Samuel]

My happy forts are because I systematically inflict psychological horrors on every immigrant untill they get the "Doesn't really care about anything" descriptor, only then are they granted access to the fortress proper.

That's pretty disturbing, can I get a tutorial?

[Biag]

My happy forts are because I systematically inflict psychological horrors on every immigrant untill they get the "Doesn't really care about anything" descriptor, only then are they granted access to the fortress proper.

That's pretty disturbing, can I get a tutorial?

Keep a surplus of puppies (which you'll most likely have anyway, if you have any mating pairs of dogs). Lock migrants outside when they come; assign each of them a puppy or two to keep as a pet. Drop the puppies outside through a tube. Impale them. If there are any children in the migrant wave, impale them. If there are any pets in the migrant wave, impale them. Now let the migrants stew in their misfortune; watch the tantrum spiral! Let it heal naturally, then wait until the migrants have made friends with each other. From each circle of friends, leave one survivor.

If that doesn't do the trick, let them in anyway, because they probably didn't have emotions in the first place.

[Urist McBusDriver]

My happy forts are because I systematically inflict psychological horrors on every immigrant untill they get the "Doesn't really care about anything" descriptor, only then are they granted access to the fortress proper.

That's pretty disturbing, can I get a tutorial?

Keep a surplus of puppies (which you'll most likely have anyway, if you have any mating pairs of dogs). Lock migrants outside when they come; assign each of them a puppy or two to keep as a pet. Drop the puppies outside through a tube. Impale them. If there are any children in the migrant wave, impale them. If there are any pets in the migrant wave, impale them. Now let the migrants stew in their misfortune; watch the tantrum spiral! Let it heal naturally, then wait until the migrants have made friends with each other. From each circle of friends, leave one survivor.

If that doesn't do the trick, let them in anyway, because they probably didn't have emotions in the first place.

That sounds quite labour-intensive. I've heard rumours that building your dining room at the base of the goblinite extraction tower makes all your diners stop caring about death as a result of witnessing the goblinite extraction process.