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[SalmonGod]

He's succeeded in making a shaky position unsustainable, putting efforts to correct damages done in the Middle East back to where they were before.  Some hero.

As much as we want to know everything going on in the world, we often have no need or right to know most of the stuff that goes on.  If you want to be upset at something and be productive, take a long look at most Middle Eastern and African countries and tell them to stop being evil.  The US certainly isn't perfect, but at least some/most people are trying to make things right.

This is a pretty strange stance that you, psuedo, etc have considering Cablegate is regarded by many as responsible for launching the revolt in Tunisia, and subsequently Egypt, Libya (and beyond?)

And part of it involves revealing the U.S. NOT trying to make things right.

The more I think about it, here's the way I see it.

The U.S. has been gallavanting around the middle east for the last 10 years killing tens of thousands of mostly innocent people and impoverishing many more in attempts to spread democracy, with no signs of any success as a direct result of their actions.

Bradley Manning releases a bunch of documents kept secret by U.S. establishments, which ends up directly sparking widespread democratic revolt across the middle east and possibly further. He's punished for this with charges that carry the death penalty.

There's only so many things we can conclude here.

1. The powers that be didn't actually want to spread democracy, and are pissed off at him for revealing how their actions were actually repressing it. After all, it's apparent now that they had the tools all along to achieve their stated goals without bloodying their hands at all (just tell the truth instead of hiding it).

2. They're jealous of Manning's ability to so easily succeed where they failed, and angry at him for embarassing them in the process. So angry, they're willing to kill him for it.

One other thing to note. This charge that carries the death penalty is for "aiding the enemy." Look at the effects that Cablegate and the War Logs have had. Aren't they toppling the very sorts of people America has stated to be their enemies? Aren't they actually aiding the very sort of people that America has claimed to be attempting to aid for the last 10 years? So how has Manning "aided the enemy?" It seems to me that the powers that be are coming as close as they ever will to plainly stating who they consider to be their enemies, that is the common people whose backs they ride on.

but it's also the law.

The law supposedly exists to protect people.  I feel more protected by Manning's actions than the law.  The law is currently pursuing Manning.  From my perspective, something is very broken.  Supporting a law that is broken is like trusting a calculator that tells you 2+2=5.  It is not serving its purpose.  In fact, it is harming it.

[forsaken1111]

The U.S. has been gallavanting around the middle east for the last 10 years killing tens of thousands of mostly innocent people and impoverishing many more in attempts to spread democracy, with no signs of any success as a direct result of their actions.

Yes, of course. That is precisely what the US Military does. Deploy to foreign countries and shoot their civilians for no reason. It's what we live for. Oh and we're impoverishing them too? So you honestly think we're ordered to go out on rounds, shoot anyone who looks moderately innocent, and steal all of their valuables? I spent 4 years in the Air Force, I know many people in the military. I can tell you with absolute certainty that these things do not happen. In fact many times good soldiers are hurt because of overzealous restraint on the part of the commanders for fear of public opinion shifts due to out-of-context news footage. You never see those 'innocent people' hurling rocks, broken glass bottles, or any other damn thing they can find, you only ever see the troops defending themselves or skewed casualty reports and doctored facts.

These people defend the country and are hated for it. That is what sickens me.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

He's succeeded in making a shaky position unsustainable, putting efforts to correct damages done in the Middle East back to where they were before.  Some hero.

As much as we want to know everything going on in the world, we often have no need or right to know most of the stuff that goes on.  If you want to be upset at something and be productive, take a long look at most Middle Eastern and African countries and tell them to stop being evil.  The US certainly isn't perfect, but at least some/most people are trying to make things right.

This is a pretty strange stance that you, psuedo, etc have considering Cablegate is regarded by many as responsible for launching the revolt in Tunisia, and subsequently Egypt, Libya (and beyond?)

And part of it involves revealing the U.S. NOT trying to make things right.

The more I think about it, here's the way I see it.

The U.S. has been gallavanting around the middle east for the last 10 years killing tens of thousands of mostly innocent people and impoverishing many more in attempts to spread democracy, with no signs of any success as a direct result of their actions.

Bradley Manning releases a bunch of documents kept secret by U.S. establishments, which ends up directly sparking widespread democratic revolt across the middle east and possibly further. He's punished for this with charges that carry the death penalty.

There's only so many things we can conclude here.

1. The powers that be didn't actually want to spread democracy, and are pissed off at him for revealing how their actions were actually repressing it. After all, it's apparent now that they had the tools all along to achieve their stated goals without bloodying their hands at all (just tell the truth instead of hiding it).

2. They're jealous of Manning's ability to so easily succeed where they failed, and angry at him for embarassing them in the process. So angry, they're willing to kill him for it.

One other thing to note. This charge that carries the death penalty is for "aiding the enemy." Look at the effects that Cablegate and the War Logs have had. Aren't they toppling the very sorts of people America has stated to be their enemies? Aren't they actually aiding the very sort of people that America has claimed to be attempting to aid for the last 10 years? So how has Manning "aided the enemy?" It seems to me that the powers that be are coming as close as they ever will to plainly stating who they consider to be their enemies, that is the common people whose backs they ride on.

but it's also the law.

The law supposedly exists to protect people.  I feel more protected by Manning's actions than the law.  The law is currently pursuing Manning.  From my perspective, something is very broken.  Supporting a law that is broken is like trusting a calculator that tells you 2+2=5.  It is not serving its purpose.  In fact, it is harming it.

I'd say that people in poor as shit countries finally snapping under the incompetent yoke of two bit dictators, who don't even have their own security forces on their side, along with "successful" revolutions in a couple of countries has a lot more to do with it than a bunch of random documents a disgruntled grunt stole.


And the rest of it, we've been over this before: when there are bombs going off, and firefights going on, people die, with a heavy bias towards people who aren't in tanks or wearing body armor. Considering that in Iraq the US is just kind of fumbling around trying to serve as a peacekeeping force without any really defined goals, while glorified street gangs carry out their own little holy wars on each other and anyone else close enough to shoot, I'd expect a high civilian body count there, since effectively all of the violence is going on between civilians.

[Tilla]

As the article mentions, these are very much the same charges that US traitor Richard Nixon leveled against Daniel Ellsberg, the now well respected military analyst who leaked the Pentagon Papers after the Vietnam War; the scenario is in fact eerily similar. This may even be worse in this case, as widespread public support for the accused is already evident. One can hope the prosecution fucks up as much as those in the Ellsberg trials. I cannot see how any person no matter their political stance can support this happening in a so called democracy, or any country for that matter.

[SalmonGod]

I can tell you with absolute certainty that these things do not happen.

I know that someone is going to point this out as an isolated incident which shouldn't be taken as representative of the war effort or military as a whole.  Normally I would agree.  I hate when people make generalizations based on limited knowledge.

Except I watched the winter soldier testimonies long before Manning came along, and they painted a pretty consistent picture.  And the couple soldiers I've been personally acquainted with are some of the most fucked up people I've ever known.  I don't mean this in the sense that the experience screwed them up.  I mean they're not people I would trust very far.  One also spends most of his time bragging about how many foreign girls he's had sex with. 

I know that there are decent people in there, and I don't disrespect soldiers by default.  I just haven't been given any reason to believe that there is any decency in the general culture.  And above all, even Pseudo seems to admit that our very presence over there is a matter of recklessness.  It doesn't even matter whether individual soldiers are gallivanting, if the politicians making the major decisions are.

[Phmcw]

What Manning gave us : Proof that US army engagement policy are grossly inadequate (using anti tank helicopters as snipers? Speak of blatant disregard for civilian safety and waste of money) a direct and much needed insight in the ways of diplomacy, key elements in the misbehaviors of our state apparels (for the EU and north Africa).
We thank him as an hero.

US isn't at war with foreign terrorist, they are at war with themselves. They are going after their own citizens, against their freedom of speech, against their financial interest, against their political power. The enemy they battle in Afghanistan has been formed and armed by Americans, even if they've lost their control. The threat they represent is willingly exaggerated.

Nikov one said that some poeple "even compared the 11/9 to he Reichstag Fire". That's when I realized that they both served the same purpose, even thought the 9/11 was probably not an inside job : giving the poeple an enemy to rally against and use it as a pretext to strip them of their freedom. And of their money in this case.

Did you ever wonder why the first and most powerful military in the world cannot bring two third world countries to submit, even though they used all means to do it (short to carpet-bombing cities)? Why you need an Internet switch to fight against Al Quaida. There is only one target if you turn the Internet off in the US : US citizens. Why you need to go to such length to control INTERNAL air traffic? We doesn't do half of it and 10% of our population is Muslims. Oh yes, and we do forbid wearing the Burka in public so we have every reasons to be targeted, and Ben Laden called to Jihad against France.


You may not realize it yet, but you're seeing the awakening of a fascist system.

[Glowcat]

This is a pretty strange stance that you, psuedo, etc have considering Cablegate is regarded by many as responsible for launching the revolt in Tunisia, and subsequently Egypt, Libya (and beyond?)

I recall Pseudo supporting Mubarak over the protesters, so that may not be as convincing an example as you would have hoped. Dude has been trollin' with hard-authoritarian stances for a while.

Notice how his excuse for the revolts was "because the government was too weak" instead of the rampant corruption that was revealed for the public to see.

Anyone who isn't overcome with jingoist fervor understands that what Manning did wasn't any more illegal than other instances where corruption was leaked to the public, and that even in a state where such a thing was illegal it would not be morally supportable.

[Sowelu]

Anyone who isn't overcome with jingoist fervor understands

Nice rhetorical device you've got there.

[Earthquake Damage]

If you want to be upset at something and be productive, take a long look at most Middle Eastern and African countries and tell them to stop being evil.

lolwat?

He's obviously not very stable

He's shown poor judgment.  He probably shouldn't be given access to sensitive information.  But unstable?  I've heard nothing to suggest that.

[Zangi]

He's obviously not very stable

He's shown poor judgment.  He probably shouldn't be given access to sensitive information.  But unstable?  I've heard nothing to suggest that.

Last I heard, he was in isolation and kept awake, among other things.  I think that tends to screw with stability.

[Leafsnail]

To quote paraphrase myself from the last thread, "war is a filthy fucking business, and too many people like to think it isn't, so it is a matter of course to conceal its true nature from the people as a whole."

A bad "matter of course" that should be challenged.

Yes.

In a war, you have two choices. Tell the truth, lose public support, lose funding, and lose the war, or conceal the fact, retain public support, get funding, and maybe win the war.

Or just, y'know, not fight pointless wars that noone wants.  That's also an option.

I can see a justification to suppressing the truth if you're fighting an all out war for your country's existence or to defend your allies.  In other words, if fighting the war is necessary.  Otherwise, people should be able to make an informed decision about whether to support it or not.

Although I suppose blatant acts of suppressing information aren't exactly great for public support either.

[forsaken1111]

What the public thinks is necessary and what actually is necessary are almost never the same thing, unfortunately.

[Nadaka]

You can not dismiss what he has done as "not important" because you don't see people rioting in the street and tearing down the US government.

He exposed corruption and cover-ups in the US, little has been done about it, but its out there now.

The situation in the middle east begin in Tunisia, partially inspired by leaking the excesses of the regime. This means he set off the chain of domino's that is currently approaching the removal of the terrorist dictator Qadaffi and at at least one of those states looks to be on track towards democracy (Tunisia).

[Phmcw]

Why would you loose the war if you conceal the truth? It's pure bullshit.
Conceal the truth for the good of the poeple, protect them form themselves, allow only authorized information to surface, imprison opposition for the good of the nation and all glory to the supreme leader!!!!

Back into the USSR You don't know how lucky you are, boy .

[Leafsnail]

What the public thinks is necessary and what actually is necessary are almost never the same thing, unfortunately.

I'm gonna ask you to clarify this point, since I don't think I can respond without strawmanning it.