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Author Topic: Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg? (a debate)  (Read 9983 times)

Thundercraft

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Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg? (a debate)
« on: March 01, 2011, 06:11:03 pm »

Yes, it's another "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" discussion...
Perhaps we could debate to finally settle this ancient question once and for all?

Eggs were around long, long before the first chicken (domestic or otherwise). Dinosaurs laid eggs, for example. And I'm guessing so did all the bird ancestors of the first chickens. :P

I suppose the real question, then, is: Which came first, the chicken or the chicken egg? (That old question is not usually phrased like that, is it?) Even after narrowing it down like that, it's obviously a loaded question.

But... if one were to assume, for the sake of argument, that chickens came before chicken eggs, then that implies that the first chicken did not achieve full chicken status until after it hatched.

Proto-Chicken has unlocked a new achievement!
Proto-Chicken has earned a new rank.
Proto-Chicken now ranks as "Chicken".
Congrats to Chicken!


Another words, it implies that the egg out of which "first chicken" hatched was not a "chicken egg", but rather would be best categorized as merely another "proto-chicken egg". And that implies that when first chicken hatched it underwent a magical metamorphosis to spontaneously evolve from proto-chicken to full chicken status.

Thing is, scientists claim that Darwinian evolution takes place between generations - during conception. When an egg is fertilized, before it starts the process of cell division, DNA from both parents are mixed. And because this is sexual reproduction, the chance of a random mutation is much higher than with asexual reproduction or parthenogenesis. Anyway, evolution theory postulates that it is a combination of random mutations and natural selection of the fittest which can eventually (very gradually) give rise to a new species. And since this random mutation takes place during the fertilization of the egg...

Then the question becomes: Could this "first chicken" still have been called a "chicken" immediately after fertilization of the egg, but before cell division started? If not, then I'd say that the first chicken egg came before the first chicken!

Of course, there's also the question: If the chicken species had not been given the name "chicken" yet and there was nobody around to witness this monumental achievement, could that first chicken be called a chicken at all? :P (When a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it still make a sound?)
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Darvi

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Re: Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg? (a debate)
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2011, 06:14:35 pm »

Fish eggs. 'nuff said.
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DJ

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Re: Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg? (a debate)
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2011, 06:18:54 pm »

It's really a question of semantics. Is a chicken egg a chicken egg because it's laid by a chicken, or because a chicken hatches out of it?
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Levi

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Re: Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg? (a debate)
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2011, 06:19:35 pm »

If you are bringing genetics into it then the Chicken or the Egg question is pretty much automatically rendered pointless.  :)

Then the question becomes: Could this "first chicken" still have been called a "chicken" immediately after fertilization of the egg, but before cell division started? If not, then I'd say that the first chicken egg came before the first chicken!

Sure, if you like.  Its all just semantics, just like some people would call a just-fertilized human egg a human being, despite not looking anything like one.

In summary:  I like eating chicken eggs as they are delicious.

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Leafsnail

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Re: Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg? (a debate)
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2011, 06:30:49 pm »

I think I'd say egg.  I think it's what's inside that counts :P.

My non serious piece of evidence for this is that a horse that will give birth to a mule is carrying a mule embryo, not a horse embryo.
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Soadreqm

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Re: Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg? (a debate)
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2011, 06:45:32 pm »

Eggs are the chicken equivalent of menstruation.

I guess the correct answer to the riddle is to reject the binary choice. The question assumes that there is a well-defined division between chicken and not-chicken. Why would there be? Dividing the world into chickens and not-chickens (and chicken eggs and not-chicken-eggs) is completely arbitrary. How much do you have to alter a chicken before it stops being a chicken? Does an egg stop being an egg if you break it? What if you cook it? What if you eat it? If yes, then what is the thing you just broke, cooked and ate? Chicken-hood is continuous.

Answer: Neither the chicken nor the egg came.

If you know what I mean.
 >:]
> :]
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> :]
 >:]
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Virex

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Re: Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg? (a debate)
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2011, 06:47:23 pm »

Well, since a chicken egg must naturally be produced by a chicken but a chicken can only hatch from a chicken egg there are but 2 conclusions possible: a.) Chickens don't exists because there is no possible source that could have brought forth the first chicken or b.) The first chicken, or the first egg, came about through Abiogenesis. Since there is no evidence that indicates that abiogenesis has ever taken place, the likelihood of option b.) is low enough to say that, with a reasonable margin of error, chickens do not exist.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 06:49:49 pm by Virex »
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PTTG??

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Re: Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg? (a debate)
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2011, 06:48:27 pm »

This is semantics. If you define an egg by what it contains, then a proto-chicken at some point laid the first chicken egg, before chickens existed. If you define an egg by where it came from, then the first chicken hatched out of an egg laid by a proto-chicken.

This assumes that proto-chickens are close enough to chickens so that a proto-rooster can fertilize the first chicken. Which would imply that they are the same species... which obscures what the difference between the two.

A more interesting question along these lines is, how was the mother of the first human being different from the first human?

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Rilder

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Re: Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg? (a debate)
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2011, 06:51:27 pm »

If you know what I mean.
 >:]
> :]
 >:]
> :]
 >:]


Bawk Chicka Bawk Bawk?
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Darvi

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Re: Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg? (a debate)
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2011, 07:14:53 pm »

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DeKaFu

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Re: Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg? (a debate)
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2011, 07:18:59 pm »

Here's the thing. Before Chickens were Chickens, they were Red Junglefowl. Possibly hybridized with Grey Junglefowl. Chickens and Junglefowl are extremely similar and can interbreed. So, perhaps it can be argued that the first Chicken was merely a newly domesticated Junglefowl which was bestowed with a new name?

In which case, that Chicken would have preceded the first Chicken egg.
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Virex

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Re: Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg? (a debate)
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2011, 07:32:04 pm »

A more important question would be what the hell an egg is going to do with a box of dog food. (unless he's talking about hunefutter, but then, what's an egg going to do with bird seed?)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 07:33:56 pm by Virex »
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Darvi

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Re: Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg? (a debate)
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2011, 07:36:24 pm »

It's dog food.
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ggamer

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Re: Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg? (a debate)
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2011, 07:38:14 pm »

It's hard for me to comment on this without bringing religion into it.

Itnetlolor

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Re: Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg? (a debate)
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2011, 07:54:26 pm »

Must... resist... frozen chicken taboo joke.
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