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Author Topic: The Zombocalypse Is Coming  (Read 41894 times)

Oddysee

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Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
« Reply #75 on: May 31, 2011, 08:05:46 am »

So Jonathan, you're still working on this right?
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
« Reply #76 on: June 02, 2011, 05:25:20 pm »

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nenjin

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Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
« Reply #77 on: June 02, 2011, 05:28:03 pm »

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This video is currently being processed.

Oh, you tease.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
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Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
« Reply #78 on: June 02, 2011, 05:29:45 pm »

MWAHAHAHAHA!

I really did cackle cruelly when posting that. The video is now available.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 06:00:43 pm by Jonathan S. Fox »
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nenjin

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Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
« Reply #79 on: June 02, 2011, 06:05:30 pm »

Looking promising so far.

What I really liked that you have so far: the auto-combat thing. Genius. Multiple party members + single targeting methods + swarms = tedious combat. The combat you've done very much streamlines it, but allows us the gameiness of saying "I, Hubert Jenkins, chose to smash that zombie's head in with a fire axe." If you can squirrel configurable AI options in there for the auto-combat AI, that would be sweet.

The action points bar is also something I've wanted to see in Rogue-likes for a while. Games like Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup would benefit from something like this, to explain combat speeds and performance much better. I'd like to see lists in-game that describe how much each actual action costs. Give us delicious data to plan the perfect team, down to their turn-by-turn capabilities.

While the player tile is a cute effect that hearkens back to LCS...it feels too small to me. The whole squad fitting on one tile. It makes me think that maybe zombies should stack since the player effectively stacks, and you can have a tile for a horde of zombies. That way you can cram more zombie in for less overhead. It's not "realistic" but the squad already breaking reality in that sense. It's up to you if you want to continue down the path it's presenting.

So, what I would like to see.

There was a web-based zombie game someone linked over in OG. You had your base, yadda yadda, but the city map was a series of plots. Some were residential, some were commercial, some were government. You started by securing the sites around your base and progressively you started exploring more of the world.

I found that plot-design really endearing. Combine that with what Fort Zombie does, which is random encounters while you travel that plop you into generated plots you need to escape from, I think you've got a good mixture of free roaming and simulation. It allows you to set up other things like: multiple bases. Various environments with different threat levels and rewards. Different scenarios for meeting and recruiting survivors. Plots of different sizes that may or may not take advantage of the 1,000,000 site tile cap. And you could make a fun little procedurally generated game map that whoever is doing your tile artwork could have a fun time doing.

Things it would require though:

-Another, top-level procedural plot generator.
-Lots of variety in the site map generator.
-Some sort of method to track the zombie pop moving through the city via plots. I'd poke around the work done on Rogue Survivor, as it manages to model this efficiently without bringing things to a halt. You don't want static sites because, obviously, the Zombie Apocalypse isn't a jRPG where you just systematically clear out the world. So even sites you "clear", you want roamers and the chance a horde moves through there.

If you can get a decent horde simulation going, that becomes a game in and of itself (like if you get scouting reports that X numbers of zombies were seen at Y,Z plot), managing the movement of the horde or responding to it. Again, Rogue Survivor does something like this, but it tends to focus a lot on the individual sightings, so information about large movements of ZEDs becomes hard to discern.

Anyways, that's just generic random thinking that popped into my head while watching this. These zombie rogue-likes to me benefit from as much procedural map gen as you can conjure and good zombie population simulation. The whole "zombies go to sleep and stand there when you aren't around" works, it's just the limit of what most zombie games of this nature can reach, and it would be cool to see someone go beyond that, by modeling the horde more effectively. Rogue Survivor has in a sense gotten there in a fun and interesting way, even if the game becomes unsurvivable past X because of it. Fort Zombie does it through smoke and mirrors, just a countdown timer to DOOM and a swarm. Something that captures both, the movement of the horde and the climatic but not necessarily inevitable conclusion, would be amazing.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 03:33:17 am by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

shaihulud

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Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
« Reply #80 on: June 02, 2011, 07:13:03 pm »

thanks for the preview Jonathan! really looking forward to it!
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nenjin

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Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
« Reply #81 on: June 02, 2011, 07:23:55 pm »

So what about this Jonathon.

What if the plot/site design were based around the building that defines the plot, rather than the 'character' of the area?

For example, if one was built around a large motel, rather than a large site containing a bunch of random plots, one of which is a building that says "motel."

Consider what almost all zombie games do now. They give you a large open grid, square buildings to form streets, alleys and sidewalks, and one district is much the same as the other, all that differs is what you find in each individual plot within the site.

So what if instead you end up with a city built of large building plots, each of which is a site you investigate. If you meet the zeds in transit between plots, it kicks you to some generated, generic street site for you to escape from.

That really, really opens up the possibilities for uniqueness, sites that are more detailed and focus less on quantity to make things interesting. While it does lose some of the open nature of the simulation, I think it greatly increase the value of actually playing it and exploring the game.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 03:36:01 am by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
« Reply #82 on: June 03, 2011, 01:44:40 am »

Woo! Thank you nenjin, thank you!

I've been thinking about having zombies stack up to 5 or 6 to a tile for the same reason. If you get 4-5 to a tile, why shouldn't the so-called "horde" be able to do that too?

At the moment, each building and rectangular chunk of street is its own plot of land, and they manage their own generation. The first thing I do in world gen is to section the city off into plots and assign types to them. Then I go through to each plot, and instruct it to construct a building of that type there. The record of what plots are where is never lost, and I can look up what plot any given tile is on. These plots of land also have records for amounts of food, medicine, and zombies they contain. These amounts are emptied when the supplies and zombies are placed in the world.

The game doesn't do this currently, but it would be very straightforward to repack all the zombies and supplies on a location into the plot's data. I could even retain the location of the supplies inside the plot. In doing so, it would be plausible to simulate horde movement from plot to plot.

It's also technically possible for me to make recursive plots. I could create a type that is, say, a military base, and have that military base internally subdivide itself into buildings. Or a mall that internally subdivides itself into hallways and stores. I don't want to get too carried away with what is "possible" since I might not get around to doing those things, but the system should be robust enough to allow fairly interesting large locations.

At the moment, I'm leaning toward doing world design similar to what you describe in your second post -- have an abstracted large city with hotspots you can send squads to, and make it possible for your squads to get intercepted and fight/flee on more generic maps as well. My understanding is that Fort Zombie does something similar, but I haven't played it. I'll check it out for sure. (I think I have played the other game you were talking about; it sounds like the Flash game Rebuild, which came out shortly before I started this project.)

Thanks again!

For anyone that missed it due to the obscure link above, I uploaded a 13-minute video of the current build of ZSS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWpqiyjb5l0
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
« Reply #83 on: June 03, 2011, 02:02:31 am »

If you're going to add six zombies to a square, I would suggest adding a simulation of the effects of crowd crush. A group of people all pushing in one direction onto each other can exert massive amounts of force, enough to tear down or tip over walls and fences. It also risks harming those inside it, but with zombies that isn't really an issue unless they get your survivors up against a wall.
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jester

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Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
« Reply #84 on: June 03, 2011, 02:13:22 am »

Just keep at it at this stage, really looking forward to it
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nenjin

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Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
« Reply #85 on: June 03, 2011, 03:31:54 am »

Quote
At the moment, I'm leaning toward doing world design similar to what you describe in your second post -- have an abstracted large city with hotspots you can send squads to, and make it possible for your squads to get intercepted and fight/flee on more generic maps as well. My understanding is that Fort Zombie does something similar, but I haven't played it. I'll check it out for sure. (I think I have played the other game you were talking about; it sounds like the Flash game Rebuild, which came out shortly before I started this project.)

Fort Zombie presents you the map each day. There are stick pins at randomly placed distances from the base, that represent a mission type. How far the mission is from the base, i.e. how much travel time it requires to get there and back (how long before nightfall, and how long you're vulnerable to an attack while traveling) is a big part of the tactical decision making and variation in challenge. Every day you get a new selection of missions, and the unfinished ones get scrubbed.

Fort Zombie doesn't divide the city into districts. Rather, each time you go to a mission (or have a random encounter) a map is generated, it plops in plots of houses or whatever, and it seems to loosely draw some kinds of districts within the map it creates based on themes. So you might get a brick of residentials, some commercial, some industry, a park, some military stuff....ect...in the map you're playing for each mission.

On a per map basis, Fort Zombie does it very well and I recommend watching some Youtube videos. It's 3d so it's not completely applicable to what you're doing, but if you look at it from a top down perspective it still works.

Where it falls short IMO is the actual map abstraction. The city is faceless and generic and the only thing that adds something there is the random nature of the daily missions and figuring out your travel time. But even those have no real rhyme or reason or...I dunno, guiding mechanic. None of the maps that get generated for missions are ever saved. So while it's really random and that's good, it's really random and that's bad. Because you always have something new to look at, but you get no sense of progress aside from your base and your survivors.

So a system with a city map that breaks up each plot into single or large-sized complexes, and generates that at the start of the game, would add the randomness to keep it replayable while not making it unrecognizably random while you're playing. That and the variation between what you get near you at game start adds that tactical variation that rogue-likes thrive on. The size or scope of each plot could go either way....but I find I'm getting pretty bored of generic cityscapes at this point, because no one ever leaves enough room for each plot to be different. A square building sub-divided three times is still a square building with a pretty recognizable pattern. I don't know how involved it would be to procedurally generate more interesting buildings...but I imagine if you're not forced to constrain each one within a 20x20 square tile, that's in a 500x500 tile grid....you might be able to create more evolved shapes.

Again, for what I think each playable map should look like, check out Fort Zombie. It manages to do a plot design that really hides the subdivisions in a way that's believable and interesting. For what I think the meta-city map should look like to be the most fun or interesting, yeah, Rebuild.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 03:47:32 am by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

shaihulud

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Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
« Reply #86 on: June 03, 2011, 08:05:06 am »

i dont know if this is possible but i would love to see more managment type of gameplay. Say it like you could switch over from adventure mode to managment mode, build your strongehold in managment mode and then you could actually plays a part in defending your strongehold. Scavenge in adventure mode for food and recurits then when you bring them back to the stronghold you'll need to manage them. Population VS food, manage people to form squads, train their stats(like DF)....etc. Other than Zombies factions would be nice too, survivors still have ideologies, but when you defeat an enemy you might able to recurit them somehow(like LCS?), thats all i can think of right now, just some silly ideas.

and does the damage system include body parts? please make it so like in LCS and DF...
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Jamini

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Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
« Reply #87 on: June 03, 2011, 04:06:19 pm »

While I understand that you are trying to avoid the rougelike follower problem, it would be nice to be able to order your squad members to  act in squares independant of yours. Perhaps a "Hold this point" or "Go there" option which removes them from your party (temporarily) and sends them to the designated location.
 
Ideally they wouldn't need to move more than that, unless injured or in very serious danger (in which case, they run back to you or straight away depending on the nature of the threat and maybe a stat or two.) Such a system would add a lot of tactical depth to the game, without turning it into a TBS (not that a TBS is a bad thing mind) or giving you the rougelike followers problem. Naturally, if you leave the site your followers would follow you out.
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nenjin

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Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
« Reply #88 on: June 03, 2011, 05:00:40 pm »

Being able to split the party up on a limited basis might be pretty cool actually, especially if can still engage in combat automatically. Kind of like putting up overwatch positions from Spacehulk.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Servant Corps

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Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
« Reply #89 on: June 03, 2011, 07:20:37 pm »

Quote
Other than Zombies factions would be nice too

I'd like to see rival Zombie factions, each Zombie faction aiming to destroy other Zombies rather than the Humans. Would be pretty interesting.
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I have left Bay12Games to pursue a life of non-Bay12Games. If you need to talk to me, please email at me at igorhorst at gmail dot com.
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