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[Sithlordz]

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i agree with what yann is saying here; the lack of goals is primarily why i play adventure mode in DF a lot more than fortress - it requires a lot less intellectual involvement and planning compared to the task of creating a working settlement, and i find it rather difficult to motivate myself for the latter task without a real reason to do so.  and i never pay attention to any self-imposed goals i set (because i'm a big n00b :<), so every fortress just fizzles out after i get the basics like farming and brewing working.  there actually IS an overarching objective in LCS, so every fascist and GODDAMN CONSERVATIVE SCUMBAG FROM HELL A BAD PLACE that i dispose of feels like a 'step', rather than an unfocused flail as in the fortress of dwarves.  i am quite happy with just the general goal of 'liberalise everyone' that is present in LCS, but i wanted to step in to defend yann's idea: it's not a commercial step, it's just something to keep people playing and help them discover some of the really cool shit present in bay 12's games.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

Will the infection have a backstory? Is it a virus or something occult?

How about making the game randomize it whether the zombification is biological or occult. Then there could be some skills - like science and occult/sorcery - that are helpful with the right scenario and useless with the wrong one... and you can't know which one the game is about till after you've played a while. These skills could mainly be used for small bonus stuff, like, I don't know - developing immunisation to the infection with scientific skills or building anti-zombie amulets with occultism that grant defense bonus vs zeds in combat.

How bout... a choose your own zombie game?

Rate it with difficulty level...    Add more abilities/perks to zombies, increase difficulty!  Fun for the nub and veteran alike?!

I like these ideas. Sometimes you need a witch or a priest... sometimes you need a scientist. What other kinds of zombie origin stories exist?

Sounds exciting!  I'm eager to see what you come up with, and maybe participate (though my flash-fu is my weakest fu).

What will it be, a 2d art based game? If so, I would like to participate in spriting.

Same here, I need practice.

I appreciate the desire to help, but since this is necessarily a for-profit game (I'm seeking sponsorship money and advertising revenue; I have no intention of charging for the game), I'm hesitant to outsource any art or other tasks. I need to make money so that I can pay rent and continue to be an independent game developer after this game is complete.

It will be 2d art; I haven't decided how much of a mix of vector art and raster art it'll use. Vector graphics is the style of graphics you see in the simplified cartoony art style of most flash games. Raster graphics is the style of graphics you see in hand-crafted pixel art flash games and all games from the late 80s and early 90s. The images in the first post are (intentionally pixelated) raster art.

Piloting as a skill, you say?

One of the problems LCS has, I believe, is the lack of having a goal. There is the mammoth task of making America liberal of course, but it needs to be broken up into smaller tasks to make it easier for someone to get into.

For example, in this game, you maybe had to bomb a graveyard in the island or something via a sequence like the one in LCS. Do not take this idea to heart because it is clearly not thought out, but it's very important to think about this as a game developer in general.

The reason achievements and stuff have become so prevalent in modern video games is because they make the player feel like they must complete something. A fully open world would be terrible for this reason, and this is one of Dwarf Fortress's greatest downfalls in my opinion, to cite an example. I am able to understand it, but I just stop playing because I feel like I'm not really working towards something. This should be a key principle in all game design, I believe as a gamer, and it should be present in this game in some way, shape or form.

I generally agree. The Sims 3 is a fantastic example of an extremely open-ended game which uses shrewd game design to fill the game with direction and purpose; every Sim has a very ambitious life's goal, and you're perpetually beset by optional, non-intrusive, dynamically generated mini-quests you can accept or ignore. The nature of these quests is determined by what is happening right now in the world, your Sim's life goal, and your Sim's personality, making them seem relevant. I don't know for certain what I'll do about this in the game, but it's something I will be keeping in mind.

I think that, looking at the win conditions Jonathan has planned, that may not be a problem. A few of them are amenable to being solved piecemeal, especially founding a permanent settlement. Even flying to Madagascar and curing the zombie virus could work nicely like that; for the plane ending, clear out an airport, get a plane, repair it (assuming it is damaged, which, for the sake of the narrative, I think it should be), get enough fuel for a long flight, enough food and equipment to let you kick off life in Madagascar and getting a pilot or teaching someone.

As for curing the zombie virus, it could also be broken up into stages with some creativity. Maybe you need to capture zombies and experiment on them, get equipment from labs (possibly find the research from ground zero if it's a "science gone awry" start scenario), devote time to the research and contact immune survivors to get anecdotal evidence (or experiment on them for the "saved the world but at what cost" trope).

I would like to have the goals be pursued piecemeal, yes. I would also like to have some "discovery" of the goals; have the idea that this is achievable come up part way through the game. That leaves a challenge of what your initial goal is, beyond just stay alive.

What type of gameplay will it have, by the way? I assume a top-down perspective, but will it be LCS-style turn-based, tactical turn-based (e.g. Fallout Tactics, Ogre Tactics, etc.), or real-time shooter?

This is the #1 biggest design challenge I'm facing. The more complicated combat resolution gets, the longer it will take to implement and the more likely it will take time to make it fun and work out any kinks in the system. More complicated combat systems will also require more time working on content and map algorithms for the building interiors, and will increase the art demands. I've considered many different options, including real-time shooting, X-COM-style tactical battles, and LCS-style combat.

One possibility I'm kicking around is to focus on the strategic game and remove the tactical game entirely (perhaps add it in a sequel?), replacing it with an ultra-spartan system that doesn't show building interiors, but instead just shows a screen where you can see your character's status, with icons showing their ammunition and health. The game then simulates the fight abstractly in real-time, playing gunfire and zombie moans, and showing their ammunition tick down and kills rack up, and a number on the side showing the number of zombies remaining in the building ticking down. At the end, it tallies what was looted from the building and racks up experience for your squad. I'm confident that I can make this system fun to play with, and it will allow me to release the game sooner, which puts me at reduced financial risk.

Whouhou ! that's a lot of things ! But the beauty with work on a spreadsheet is that it is 10 times quicker to test something than when creating a video game.

Maybe some ideas coming for you Jonathan ! (Even if you don't look at the initial time, at least having an idea how things might have happened ...)

More ideas are always welcome!

You did good work on the spreadsheet before, it was fun to play with and interesting to see how things turned out with different assumptions. I hope all the new features work out well!

[Servant Corps]

I like these ideas. Sometimes you need a witch or a priest... sometimes you need a scientist. What other kinds of zombie origin stories exist?

How about a third style of Zombification that mixes the two? Zombies would be essentially normal (or perhaps the "mentally insane") human beings in undeveloped third-world countries such as Haiti that were forcibly enslaved through the use of social engineering, neurotoxins, and hallucinogens. These zombies are essentially mindless brutes that do not recall anything and only serve to do hard labor. These Zombies have always existed in secret and served as a cheap and reliable labor supply, but there's always the fear that these zombies may rebel...

In this case, zombie infection would take a pretty long time to do, and I'm not sure if the zombies themselves would have the intellect to actually infect others.

[nenjin]

This is the #1 biggest design challenge I'm facing.

Personally, the "select your inputs and shake the box" abstraction of tactical gameplay only really stays fun for me if:

-There are updwards of 30 or 40 inputs to experiment with.
-There is a window of time where you can do something while the sim is running.

You could do a two-tiered development style, where in you focus on the strategic portion, get the abstraction working....and in stage two, you make the automated tactical portion optional, or allow the player to take control....and design the tactical module from that point on.

What other kinds of zombie origin stories exist?

Let's see....

Wrath of God. (Standard supernatural zombie.)
Hubris of Science. (Man-made virus.)
Nuclear Fallout. (Mind-melted human.)
Random Mutation. (Genetic Freak Mutation.)
Natural Disease. (Zombie virus.)
Zombie Master. (Voodoo Priests making legions of mindless slaves. See: Serpent and the Rainbow.)
Zombie Machines. (Not really true zombies, but I've always seen legions of automatons bent on killing much the same as zombies.)

[Jonathan S. Fox]

This is the #1 biggest design challenge I'm facing.

Personally, the "select your inputs and shake the box" abstraction of tactical gameplay only really stays fun for me if:

-There are updwards of 30 or 40 inputs to experiment with.
-There is a window of time where you can do something while the sim is running.

You could do a two-tiered development style, where in you focus on the strategic portion, get the abstraction working....and in stage two, you make the automated tactical portion optional, or allow the player to take control....and design the tactical module from that point on.

This approach would be more along the lines of your lead designer writing the GDD in Game Dev Story than the fully-featured eye candy of Gratuitous Space Battles. Fights would be short and the details left to the imagination so that I don't have to art up the building interiors or simulate spacial combat.

I am definitely planning on using some kind of abstraction at first, and working on the strategic layer before the tactical layer. The possibility I'm considering is to not implement a tactical layer at all for the game. That doesn't necessarily prevent doing a tactical layer in the future, after the game is released, and making a sequel that features tactical combat, but it does make a difference in how polished and interesting the abstraction should be. It also greatly affects how the weapons and skills that affect combat are designed, since it's absolutely crucial that they make sense and have perceivable impact on the game.

One of the other options is to stick more closely to how LCS does it, with RPG round-based combat. The challenge there is to adapt the text-based combat resolution to be more graphical, which may mean using older Japanese RPG conventions -- well, older compared to today, but much more modern compared to LCS! Another challenge is how to do building layouts and exploration. I'd like to make it so you have a clear sense of clearing out the map of Zombies (rather than infinite random encounters), without making you wonder why you can't just shoot the Zombies from several tiles away. Adhering to JRPG conventions again may alleviate that issue.

[nenjin]

This approach would be more along the lines of your lead designer writing the GDD in Game Dev Story than the fully-featured eye candy of Gratuitous Space Battles. Fights would be short and the details left to the imagination so that I don't have to art up the building interiors or simulate spacial combat.

Yeah, I know where you're coming from.

It's an issue of expectations, I guess. Which aren't sacrosanct but....when I think zombie survival, on any level, there's that positional situation. Surrounded by zombies, seeing your only escape route, yadda yadda.

So even if it's got this interesting strategic overview of a zombie apocalypse...the lack of seeing actual zombies and manuevering to me seems like a gaping black hole. Basically X-COM without the tactical battles...and that game is two equal parts awesome, strategic and tactical, neither of which makes a full game without the other.

Just some food for thought. Lots of different ideas about zombie games are going around now. Like Dead State focusing on the psychology and outcomes of the survivors rather than focusing on killing zombies.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

Yes, that makes sense, and I will definitely take your concerns into account.

Edit: Wow, that sounds so corporate. I just mean that I'm not at the point where I need to make a decision yet.

[Innominate]

I like these ideas. Sometimes you need a witch or a priest... sometimes you need a scientist. What other kinds of zombie origin stories exist?

All the resource you will ever need about zombies

The origin story is important, but the other features matter more. The game I'm making is intended to have the kind of "choose your own zombie" feature mentioned above. Important aspects: infection dynamics and transformation properties.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

* indicates that it requires the appropriate origin story

• Infection dynamics:
  
  • Transmission vectors (zero or more)
    
    • Through proximity (e.g. airborne disease)
    • Through contact
    • Through biting (e.g. saliva-borne disease)
    • Through blood (e.g. blood-borne disease - this one totally screws over people who melee)
    • Through food/water (e.g. radiation)
    • Through death (e.g. supernatural or high-tech origin)
  • Transformation catalyst (one, maybe a second if taking death)
    
    • Immediately or very quickly
    • Hours to days to weeks
    • Death (so you're alright if you're infected provided you don't die)
  • Immunity (zero or more)
    
    • Natural
    • Chance on acquiring
    • Chance on curing before transformation
    • Chance on curing after transformation
  • Curing before/after transformation (same options for both, zero or more)
    
    • Chance of spontaneous cure
    • Antibiotics (may be ineffective late in the process)
    • Specific vaccine (may be ineffective late in the process - requires development)
    • Magic*
    • Anti-radiation medication* (e.g. potassium iodide)
• Transformation properties
  
  • Mobility (one)
    
    • More athletic than expected based on body-type (enhancement - super-zombie)
    • As athletic as expected (retention - possibly slightly better due to no mental obstacles)
    • Shambling (degradation - zombie clasic)
  • Intelligence (one)
    
    • More intelligent than before (can't really be called zombies then)
    • As or slightly less intelligent than before (also un-zomie-like, but acceptable)
    • Spontaneous, driven, but not good problem-solvers (e.g. 28 Days Later)
    • Brain-dead (zombie classic)
  • Senses (good, average, bad or none for each)
    
    • Sight
    • Hearing
    • Scent
    • Blood scent (like sharks)
  • Sustained by (zero or more)
    
    • Human flesh
    • Magic*
    • Radiation*
    • Actual food
  • Consequences of starvation (zero or more)
    
    • Reduced capabilities
    • "Death"
    • Turning on each other
    • Desperation
  • Extra abilities (some L4D style - zero or more) - maybe mutation
    
    • Hive mind (optionally only when near controller)
    • Leaping/rending (hunter)
    • Zombie directing (boomer)
    • Long, powerful tongue (smoker)
    • Tank

[Biag]

With regards to the tactical combat bit- the combat (or really, lack thereof) in Rebuild was the reason I played it once, and only once. A zombie apocalypse just doesn't feel like a zombie apocalypse if you don't actually have to fight to survive, and from a monetary standpoint I think it will be worth your time.

[mainiac]

Corporate is another excellent zombie genre.  It would be thematically interesting in that the zeds are both your antagonists and the people you need to save.

[jester]

while input is great remember that all the really great stuff out there is ultimately the work of one determined and clever bugger.  You will never be able to please everybody and if you try it will usually be garbage.  Make a game you would want to play yourself and it shouldnt be too far wrong. 
  That said:
   I love games with a stupidly high amount of options for activities and equipment like DF or LCS

[Deon]

I appreciate the desire to help, but since this is necessarily a for-profit game (I'm seeking sponsorship money and advertising revenue; I have no intention of charging for the game), I'm hesitant to outsource any art or other tasks. I need to make money so that I can pay rent and continue to be an independent game developer after this game is complete.

Isn't there some way to "donate" graphics or something? So you could use them as your own?

Anyway, if you find a need for that, you know where to look .

[Strife26]

What about a "link up with military relief force" win condition as one for relatively simple survival in the long term? If you've survived for a longish enough time, you'd get a message that a military relief convoy is coming over shortwave radio, and could then get rescued by them and pulled out (or it'd be simple luck of them coming across your survivors if you couldn't contact them). If the convoy then tried to loop through the map and pick up all the survivors that they (or anyone that they rescued) knew about, that'd be really cool.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

Even if the apocalypse is global, I can see a possible ending where you get picked up from the island by a navy ship, or even a submarine.

The army and air force are undead, but significant portions of the Navy put to sea and never looked back. Getting to that point would involve retaking the military base and using equipment there to get into contact with the remnants of the fleet. They, of course, desperately need supplies, and are happy to risk a small ship to pick up food and other equipment, if you can gather a substantial stockpile to hand over.

Much as they'd like to, it's not a rescue mission; they don't yet have a self-sufficient society on their handful of formerly uninhabited islands they've colonized, and they risk everything picking people up along with the supplies. However, they'll give you some weapons and other equipment to help you hold out, and promise they'll try to return when they can. Maybe you can bribe your way in early, and get some sympathetic ranking officer who really wants something special to slip you in among the crew.

Eventually, whether you've helped them or not, their uninhabited island venture succeeds, and they come back to pick people up. Of course, the rescue will go horribly wrong, and your intervention may determine whether hundreds escape to a new life or the ship's crew is infected.

[Aqizzar]

I'm not totally up to speed on the technical details, but the idea of a Zombie Survival game based on the design principles of LCS writes itself.  I know you know what you're doing Fox, so I'm really looking forward to this.

I suppose I should read through the thread a bit, so I'll actually have real comments.