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[Frumple]

The, uh. The arena fights aren't sparring. Those things are to the death. Bloodsport. There's a reason that guy's kinda' shady.

[Neonivek]

The, uh. The arena fights aren't sparring. Those things are to the death. Bloodsport. There's a reason that guy's kinda' shady.

Not refering to him...

Also that fight doesn't autokill you if you can't win a fight because you can always back out of it upon death.

It was another one, where dying didn't have an option not to go to the exact same spot I died... I died to an invisable enemy.

[Frumple]

There's... only three 'arena' style fights in T4. Derth, Zigur, and the slave pit. The first doesn't have anything invisible, and with the pit fight it isn't actually the player character being killed off, so... probably the Zigur antimagic fight, which can spawn a dread on you. Which... that, again, isn't sparring. They've got vicious angry things they let loose on you. Wouldn't be surprised if it locked out post-death zone escape, too. The rod of recall is definitely nixed in there, so probably. Anti-magic's a jerk like that

AM sucks in general if you're not very specifically building for it, really. Nasty thing, hum. Pretty decent if you're setup to take advantage, but a kick t'the balls of anyone else.

[Dr.Feelgood]

Auto-explore is great. I don't like the new saves system. I wish this game was harder. Normal mode is boring and insane mode seems to be impossible to win.

[Neonivek]

Auto-explore is great. I don't like the new saves system. I wish this game was harder. Normal mode is boring and insane mode seems to be impossible to win.

It won't ever really be. The creator doesn't exactly know how to balance the game too too well or to gate the experiences.

A lot of the time the game just ups and kills you with something you didn't know was comming.

[Frumple]

The saves have already been changed a bit in svn, more of a half-way point between what it was (only really useful when rather high) and what it is (completely frakking useless once you have enough to stop cross-tier effects).

Insane mode is insane. It's not meant to be balanced, or winnable, or anything, really. It's just there for masochists to throw themselves at and die (and occasionally reveal highly broken talents/talent combinations). More'll be done with it, from what I understand, once normal mode is actually more solid, balance wise. Which'll come once the (main campaign) content stops rolling in. Anything after that will probably be done by interested community members, I imagine.

But! Addon-functionality has been added, so lil'patches by the community are really easy to slip in, now. If you're willing to bring the difficulty more in line with what you want (or convince someone else to do it ) and share it with other players...

A lot of the time the game just ups and kills you with something you didn't know was comming.

Roguelike is roguelike is roguelike
 
Learn by dying has always been a bit of a thing for RLs. The new inspect creature command, though, places most of the fault-of-dying on the player, since most of the enemy's tools are pretty translucent now. That makes T4 one of the more forgiving RLs, so far as th'single action "Whoops, you screwed up, time to re-roll" thing goes.

Though, to Feelgood... what would you improve? Do you prefer arena or infinite dungeon over the main campaign? What about normal is boring? The dev is interested in these things, heh.

[Neonivek]

Yeah it is the most forgiving, but it still has a bit to do.

I never consider "it is a roguelike" to be an excuse for "You should have known that was going to happen WAY before you could have possibly have known that was going to happen".

It is more of a flaw that Roguelikes havn't moved beyond used to lengthen out and create a gap between experienced and inexperienced players.

[Dr.Feelgood]

Though, to Feelgood... what would you improve? Do you prefer arena or infinite dungeon over the main campaign? What about normal is boring? The dev is interested in these things, heh.

The early game is a chore to get through. Nothing in the early dungeons is threatening. I tend to rush through the dungeons and kill the bosses. I know artifacts can randomly appear in the dungeon, but fighting dungeon trash is dull. I kinda wish the entire game was as hard as the prides/high peak.

[baruk]

Normal should be renamed easy. The new normal could be halfway between easy and insane.
Alchemists seem viable on insane - my Thaloren has reached the middle dungeons so far, having just nabbed the level 20 achievement. As long as the monsters ignore my squishy caster and attack my golem, I have no worries.

[Neonivek]

Normal should be renamed easy. The new normal could be halfway between easy and insane.
Alchemists seem viable on insane - my Thaloren has reached the middle dungeons so far, having just nabbed the level 20 achievement. As long as the monsters ignore my squishy caster and attack my golem, I have no worries.

Normal is only easy if you
A) Know the exact order in which your expected to play the game
B) Know exactly how to create your character
and
C) Know exactly what enemies your immediately going to face

[Robsoie]

Being busy enjoying the DoomRL graphic and mouse driven release, along my ever failing fortresses in current version of DF, i missed 2 days ago the release of a new version of ToME 4 :
http://te4.org/blogs/darkgod/2012/02/news/tales-majeyal-beta38-aka-new-beginning

In fact i missed several of them, the last version discussed on this thread was beta35, lots of change apparently since, here's beta 36 and 37 release articles if you want to see what's new since the last version discussed here :
http://te4.org/blogs/darkgod/2011/12/news/tales-majeyal-beta36-aka-saving-saves
http://te4.org/blogs/darkgod/2011/12/news/tales-majeyal-beta37-aka-dawn-victory


With DF getting back to cruise speed and that amazing new DoomRL release, i wonder when i'll have the time to dive again in ToME4 , so much great games, so little time.

[Graven]

Oh wow, so there WAS a Tome 4 thread!

I've been playing it for the last month or so, since I decided to take a break from Crawl. I'm playing b37 since they nerfed paradox users pretty hard in b38 and I kind of want to play them some more. Paradox mage is the most interesting caster I've tried in a game bar none, too bad they're so screwed by their own resource. People keep saying Temporal Warden is so overpowered, but I'm playing my Nth TW - currently level 21 Dwarf TW, no deaths, just entered Daikara, and I feel downright fragile sometimes. God damn archmages feel more durable than my temporal wardens!

All in all I'm not sure I really love Tome 4 like I do Crawl. It has a majestic combat system and nothing to do with it - I find the majority of the fights much more boring than Crawl's combat despite the greater number of things to do, there are some enemies which are utter bullshit - why hello dreadmaster! - and the game is so slow it drives me crazy. There are a ton of crashes and I guess memory leaks, since the game slows down even more after several hours of play. And yeah, I know the latest beta does alleviate some of these problems, but it does not eliminate them, and having a roguelike lag my pc is not an acceptable state of affairs.

There are also whole levels whose gimmick is annoying - Sandworm lair comes to mind very very fast.  The game is also too long - I've never won it because even on the character I got farthest on - Dwarf Paradox mage, level 40-something, cleared all the orc prides, I felt so bored at the end, I stopped paying almost any attention to enemies. Not to mention the best timeline splitting abilities crash the stupid game every second time they're used. Also Farportal bosses can spawn with some hilarious talents which lead to instagib deaths - level 10 Beckon, for example.

I also don't agree with some of the equipment decisions - no potions/scrolls, but infusions and runes are fine? Also I still can't quite understand when I need to focus on defense, when on armour and when on saves - not to mention the 30 or so kinds of resistance and status effects, but this is mostly my own fault. The game certainly doesn't go out of its way to help me, though, that's for sure.

If only someone took the ability-driven combat system and stuck it in Crawl's superiour general game and level design

[Lord Dullard]

I haven't played Tome since 2.-whatever. Haven't really seen any reason to go to the new engine...

I just feel nostalgic for playing Lost Souls in the old game whenever I look at T4, honestly. Are there are any saving graces that make it worth playing vs. the old version?

[Neonivek]

I will outright admit that the equipment is sort of lack luster as a whole. It is just uninteresting. Though I don't think it ever really was in any TOME (It needs to learn a bit about resistances)

As well I think they should adopt the same design philosophy for unique weapons as Boarderlands did (ignoring the useless ones). In that they are used to ensure that your equipment is up to date, but that you more then can get supperior equipment (of the same level).

[Dr.Feelgood]

I started playing this game again. I like that they shortened several dungeons, but I don't like the new interface much. Oh, and I started making addons:

http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=33395
http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=31819

Please give them a try!

All in all I'm not sure I really love Tome 4 like I do Crawl. It has a majestic combat system and nothing to do with it - I find the majority of the fights much more boring than Crawl's combat despite the greater number of things to do

It's probably because most enemies in tome4 are pathetically easy and only once in a while do you come across something dangerous. It's the opposite of Crawl - a lot of enemies are potentially dangerous and you have some easy monsters to give the player a break.

Edit: Oops. I clicked post instead of preview.