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[nenjin]

Don't engage much with the ToME community, but I imagine all roguelike communities share at least some of that behavior. I know I've pointed out some things on these boards I dislike about DCSS or at least things I'd wished were different and gotten more...fervent pushback than I thought the statement warranted.

I figure games like DCSS and ToME have found their mechanical niches, and players are highly protective of that. What makes DCSS and ToME what they are, is in large part their philosophies of game design. DCSS prefers grueling challenges, starvation, linearity...whereas ToME is much more easy going. "Gamier" to me, if that's even the right term to use.

So yeah. Fans aggressively defend the corner of gaming their chosen roguelike has staked out, and often overreact to suggestions that it could change.

[Darkmere]

I think nenjin's got it. Roguelikes tend to attract some insular groups, and communities have their quirks. ToME seems to have a few overly argumentative people with chips on their shoulders, Dredmor has some doofy off-the-wall modders and a couple jerks, DF tends to have arrogance. I admit to getting overly defensive of the ones here that I've played, but I try to restrain my enthusiasm, and some people just haven't learned that life lesson.

I wouldn't take it personally, there's always this thread to hang out in, yeah?

[Robsoie]

In every online communities there are friendly and hostile people, ToME4 is not an exception about it.

My only experience of the ToME4 community is from the ToME4 boards and there on a heavy majority they're helpfull and friendly.

Now the ToME4 online chat, like everything similar gaming chat i simply ignore it (with time i learned that it was better for my poor old blood pressure to simply ignore those specific "gaming chats" ) so i have no idea if that's the same community that is on it, but if you have bad experience with that online chat community, i simply recommend to avoid it and focus on things you'll enjoy much more.

It's simply not worth wasting your time in something that is bothering and annoying you in my opinion.

Now back on the game, i am trying a character in the Nightmare difficulty, because in theory it's even more difficult i decided to help myself with another Oozemancer .
My first observation is that stronger enemies from Nightmare means more experience gained.

I'm running a dwarf oozemancer and i have not yet started the tier 2 dungeons but i'm already level 16 !
Though i imagine with something else than an oozemancer it may be more difficult to survive there, but if Normal mode is boring to you, give the Nightmare mode a try, moving faster in level helps to keep yourself interested (assuming you survive the stronger enemies of course)

[Darkmere]

Regarding the in-game chat, I did say over there that when it went on steam the quality would drop, and was basically told by DarkGod to ignore it. Sure enough, there's a lot more idiocy in it now. Even when it was more limited there are still a couple members who are looking to fight, so I learned early that I can't make jokes over there because it turns into an argument. I just ignore it entirely unless someone asks a question I can handily answer, and bring my real questions here.

It might be different if I could turn off the achievement/death spam, but that part's started to grow on me after a while. *shrug*

*** Actual game talk here ***

So this is probably the worst run for gear I've ever had. My necro cleared all the vaults and stuff no problem, but I haven't found much of anything in the way of upgrades since Vor armory. My first prodigy was Crafty Hands, and at slime tunnels I still only have Tier 3 hat and belt. Merchant randart gloves came out as rogue/shadowblade, so they're barely useful. Still at 650 fortress energy for farportals.... which gave my necro a 2H axe, shield, dagger, somewhat useful hat. It's the longest string of utterly useless junk I've ever gotten. I'm seriously considering putting my next generic into armor training to replace my spellblaze shard with the shield, just because it has +will and isn't tier 1 (or 2, whatever the shard is).

[Robsoie]

The good thing when you have a streak of bad luck is that usually out of nowhere you'll find a fantastic item, the same as when you have a streak of incredible good luck, you usually run then into overpowered enemies that one shot you.

Looks like it's something hardcoded into roguelikes

Reached level 25 with my dwarf oozemancer just after completing daikara, and i have yet to go to Urkis , the temporal rift, spellblaze and the elven ruins (and graveyard, but i usually keep it for when i come back from east).
Nightmare difficulty really deliver more XP with the stronger monsters in there.

But i think i forbidden to myself my own fortress for a long while, after getting enough energy for the farportal room to unlock, i got the surprise to see that the enemy generatef in the room was a Worm that Walk .
On their own they're already very powerfull, but Oozemancers usually can deal with them fortunately.

Except that this one is really overpowered with additional Temporal skills (that i am not used to, never playing temporal classes) on top of the usual Worm that Walk (over)powers.
But what makes it impossible to beat is that my best weapon, the bloated ooze summoning does not work as it should, what makes the skill so precious is that it summon a few bloated oozes (3 at that point of the game for my character) and they use a rush ability to run toward the enemies they see (and they distract them enough so you can retreat or deal additional damage.

And in that case, once the bloated oozes appear, they ... ignore the Worm that Walk , meaning for unknown reason they don't rush toward him (if they did as they should i could stand a chance), and the Worm that Walk ignore them and still focus fire on me.

I lost a life despite all the healing skills because he was continuously paralyse me, as soon as i was out, *bam* another spell pinning me.

Eidolon does not give the option to spawn out of danger when it is the fortress for some reason, so i respawned in front of the Worm that Walk, but this time he only paralysed me once, so i finally managed to escape on a small hundred of health left.

While the thing has insanely more than 2500 health (huge at that point of the game, maybe it's related to the Nightmare difficulty)
I guess i'll need at least 10 more levels to be able to get back into my Fortress and destroy that overpowered beast.

[Graven]

Man you playing on Nightmare? You crazy - I have enough trouble dealing with early and mid-game on Normal. My respects [even if you're playing an Oozemancer]!

After 4 really stupid deaths on my Berserker [hey kids, don't open vaults in Dreadfell if your status resistances are barely existant!], I finally got to 30 and having used a really shitty Blazebringer axe for quite a while, I got Irresistible Sun.

Just tried it a couple of times in Reknor, since I have to go to sleep, but it seems great. Also it appears it's not a spell, since my Antimagic Greathammer hasn't yet prevented its use like it does with my rune of Teleportation, but that might be just luck. I'm planning on grabing Giant Leap for maximum shenanigans.  It would probably be wise to go for something a bit more defensive but screw that noise, am I a berserker or a big pussy cat.

Also it appears they changed the Melinda, lucky girl quest? The first time I saved her I assumed this was a deliberate change and chose the "WHY DON'T WOMEN LOVE ME I'M A NICE GUY" option and laughed and laughed and DarkGod definitely deserved my respect for making that the only option - or so I thought.

But now I chose the second option, and I was on a beach, and divers appeared, and Melinda started to glow, and then I assume the stupid retard drowned because she suddenly keeled over and my quest was over, despite the glow apparently killing the divers, and I'm really confused. What in the balls? Anyone?


_{Also while this is extremely petty, why doesn't anyone acknowledge my first ever non-antimagic win waaaah}

[Robsoie]

My previous Nightmare attempts where with a bulwark and a berserker and both ended in horrible disasters, it seems Nightmare is definitively not the difficulty level you want to play with a melee character, monsters hit really stronger.
I don't even want to think about Insane (though i have not unlocked it as it required winning in Nightmare and that seems rather hard)

So far, out of a stupid death in an early dungeon, and the unavoidable death from the temporal powered Worm that Walk, i'm surprised the Oozemancer is doing that fine, but the key is to never be in melee, and the bloated ooze summons are perfect for that as they get the focus of the enemies, allowing you to get out of melee range as soon as possible to escape certain death.

That oozemancer even completed the dark crypt and saved Melinda ! something i would have never thought possible for me in Nightmare, but that's Oozemancer there, they make the impossible possible with some ooze

For the Melinda quest, i got it a few time, Melinda delivered her insane damage and we all got back without her dying, despite she always followed me when i was fetching all the lot left behind by her victims, maybe there's a bug you ran into there.

Oh and well done for the win

[Robsoie]

And as my Oozemancer just reached level 30 (took the spell feedback prodigy) during the clearing of Dreadfell (but before getting to the Master) i decided it was time for round 2 , in my attempt to get back my fortress from the hands of that evil unique Worm that Walks.

What the Worm that Walks ignored is that my character, since his horrible defeat, completed all the alchemist quests, got some really good gear and unlocked the Fungus branch from completing the Urkis quest.

And thanks to the many skills and talents points he got, my character had the mean to fight back and with some very good damage penetration (from the unlocked oozing and corrosive blade trees) on that damned thing 100% acid resistance and bits of nature one.

After entering from the portal, Stragon was ready


and stupidly remembered he forgot to wear some temporal res items, due to the Worm that Walk having some temporal powers, very bad, and Elolaith, the Worm that Walks, was ready on his side too


forgot the temporal res, stupid , stupid , stupid ... unless


He he, not so easy to use your spells now with my powerfull antimagic Silence 

But battle was still not won.
Enduring the raw power of the Worm that Walks, my brave mucus oozes and bloated ones, supported by a rain of acid and slime beams and spits from my character tearing hole into the damned thing resistance fought as bravely as some ooze can do.

Meanwhile my fungus regeneration was doing a splendid job at keeping me alive and well.

And finally proving again that Oozes can do everything, we prevailed and the terrible otherworldy beast fell


No need to say that i assigned the cleaning of my fortress to the servant, that's his job after all.

[Seriyu]

In the Deep Below, the Mouth cast regularly "Call of Amakthel"

So it's possible that it's not some random cosmic abomination but the dwarves dug so deep that they may have started to awaken a part of the imprisonned Amakthel that was cast down there by his own creations, the greedy Sher'thuls .

Interesting! I really need to get around to playing this again.

Oh when I said thaloren I meant the "physical" elf, rather then the magical. Can never keep them straight. Is the gloom a part of the blight then, or is that something else/hasn't been spelled out?

... Nope you were right, with Thalore, I just can't read. Disregard the Caves thing. I actually have NO idea what causes the gloom/cursed stuff other than "you're cursed!" because... well my cornac Cursed didn't make it very far. There's lore stuff about Doomed/Cursed being fueled by hatred or something, other than that, no idea. 

I had actually forgotten the similarity between the gloom and the cursed classes! Curious.

[Frumple]

In the Deep Below, the Mouth cast regularly "Call of Amakthel"

So it's possible that it's not some random cosmic abomination but the dwarves dug so deep that they may have started to awaken a part of the imprisonned Amakthel that was cast down there by his own creations, the greedy Sher'thuls .

Yeah, I don't know if it's been specifically mentioned in game, but I've heard DG state that the stuff in the Deep Bellow is specifically because the dwarves managed to dig deep enough to start disturbing

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

the last living god in Maj'Eyal, if you don't count the critter in the infinite dungeon. He/it was imprisoned deep in the earth and, iirc, either stralite or voratun (possibly both?) is formed from either its blood or its body. Something like that. Basically, the high end materials are made, at least partially, from godflesh. S'decently metal, ha.

[Robsoie]

For those interested in stats :
http://te4.org/game-statistics

I wouldn't have thought that the losgoroths had killed so many characters.

And even more odd, there is 1 character that actually completed the game in the Madness difficulty and Roguelike gamemode (so only 1 life) ?
http://te4.org/game-statistics/achievement/madness_win_full

(edit : link to the character)
I wish there were some replay files, as i'm really curious how it is even possible.

[Frumple]

Looking at it, if I had to guess, I'd say a gratuitous amount of unstoppable abuse, and a great deal of grinding (either farportals or advn. parties, for gold -> merchant artifacts). Assuming they weren't just cheating, heh.

Being fair, unstoppable really is incredibly good. So I wouldn't entirely discount it.

E: Oh, and, of course, Track. Every day, all the time.
E2: Woah, the radius on that Track is glorious. I knew it got silly with high scaling, but radius of 56 at 90 cunning? Wow. But yeah. Ten turns of absolute detection of everything and seven of ~can't-touch-this~ can go a long, long way.

[Darkmere]

-snip-

That's pretty terrible luck. Have you had any bonus zones, like Santascape, or particularly Bearscape? I've found Bearscape to be full of pink tier 5s (even when done at a low level), so as a last resort it might be worth waiting around until the event's next sent?

I also didn't get a single bonus dungeon. No bearscape, volcano, sludge nest. Nothing. I did find some serviceable gem-imbue items in high peak, barely in time. And of course, 3 minutes after I won, Poosh spawns.

Oh by the way... I won! First necro, first Shalore, fourth win ever. 3 or 4 of those deaths were me being stupid intentionally trying to work out mechanics before I realized she might actually make a bosskill attempt, and a couple more were things that changed since I last played that caught me off-guard. Still, a win's a win, and *high-fives Graven* my second non-antimagic one. Now... to unlock paradox mage or marauder next... hmmm.

Re: The Melinda beach yaech invasion... Apparently on the date, there's 2 possible outcomes. yaech kill Melinda.... or a timer runs down and Melinda just dies. Either way she's supposed to release a blight nova on death and immediately resurrect. There's an odd bug that can rez her but not place her back on the map, but you can still talk to her in Last Hope. DarkGod says it's fixed now, but I don't know if that's live or in the SVN version. If you got the bug but can still talk to her in Last Hope, you might try finishing the quest normally by

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Talking the Alfred the Tentacle Butler and asking him how to fix her.

[Graven]

Highfive on the win, Dark! All these necro wins make me wanna summon some undeadbros. Also thanks for the info on Melinda's quest, I was kind of wondering what was going on.

So on a non-related question, I remember hearing about Armour rogues. Since I tried a rogue and stealth was... not great, shall we say, does anyone have any idea how an armoured rogue would work? Is it even any good? My berserker is honestly about as fun as a Cursed, but not as strong - the actual amount of abilities I use is probably less, and thematically Cursed are berserkers, only hate-ier. I presume stealth gets better lategame, but I can't actually survive until lategame because elemental damage is a harsh mistress.

I also remember hearing about minionless necromancers, but I've more of an idea how that could go.

[Robsoie]

I never tried a minion-less necromancer, only won with minions armies, i wonder if it's really playable as i doubt it can be on archimage levels post mid-game.

Still surprised my nightmare oozemancer character is still alive and reached level 47, but in the same time that's an oozemancer and now he's really powerfull (that he wasn't in early game in which i had much more problems), i'm sure they can even take on Insane anyways.

I just came back from Eruan.
I got probably the worst Eruan ever in term of performance, even with particle very low, all shaders disabled and the weather turned off, it was insanely slow despite there were only very few monsters there.
Maybe the 2 big closed vaults were responsible of those heavy slowdown, but whatever is crappy in there that's really an area that would need some optimisation in the code.

I annihilated the necromancer pride before Eruan and the charred scar, meaning 3 orc prides are left before trying the endgame, hopefully Oozepowermancer willl be able to keep surviving and unlock that Insane difficulty i will never play anyways