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Author Topic: Grandroids: Secret Supporter Stuff!  (Read 65899 times)

lordcooper

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Re: Grandroids: Golum Moves!
« Reply #255 on: September 24, 2012, 02:21:36 pm »

I'm pretty sure this guy is my second favorite recluse programmer-game lover, thanks to his insane ideas [i.e.: Fuck it, I wanna program the singularity, wish me luck folks! And the last page or so of commentary about how exiting the game could become a hurtful experience for YOU if the creatures do become self aware] and his sheer commitment, mostly the last excerpt of his made me fall in love with the logic of this game. I won't even pirate this if he releases it in a reasonable timeframe; it'll be worth it.

Which raises an ethical problem.  Would pirating Grandroids be akin to kidnapping/slavery?
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Graknorke

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Re: Grandroids: Golum Moves!
« Reply #256 on: September 24, 2012, 02:24:25 pm »

I'm pretty sure this guy is my second favorite recluse programmer-game lover, thanks to his insane ideas [i.e.: Fuck it, I wanna program the singularity, wish me luck folks! And the last page or so of commentary about how exiting the game could become a hurtful experience for YOU if the creatures do become self aware] and his sheer commitment, mostly the last excerpt of his made me fall in love with the logic of this game. I won't even pirate this if he releases it in a reasonable timeframe; it'll be worth it.

Which raises an ethical problem.  Would pirating Grandroids be akin to kidnapping/slavery?
No, it'd be more like stealing the samples for artificial insemination.
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Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: Grandroids: Golum Moves!
« Reply #257 on: September 24, 2012, 02:30:34 pm »

I'm pretty sure this guy is my second favorite recluse programmer-game lover, thanks to his insane ideas [i.e.: Fuck it, I wanna program the singularity, wish me luck folks! And the last page or so of commentary about how exiting the game could become a hurtful experience for YOU if the creatures do become self aware] and his sheer commitment, mostly the last excerpt of his made me fall in love with the logic of this game. I won't even pirate this if he releases it in a reasonable timeframe; it'll be worth it.

Which raises an ethical problem.  Would pirating Grandroids be akin to kidnapping/slavery?
that makes no sense at all :\. it would be akin to creating a copy of earth on a similar solar system somewhere in andromeda.
slavery was also a legitimate business, and slaves were sometimes freed and recruited by pirate crews

Matz05

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Re: Grandroids: Golum Moves!
« Reply #258 on: September 25, 2012, 10:20:48 am »

Not really kidnapping, more like stealing an antfarm off the shelves of a petshop with infinite identical antfarms.

That... didn't sound very "sound bite". Time for some technicly wrong but morally-appealing hyperbole...

Its like stealing a puppy. And that's terrible.
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Trollheiming

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Re: Grandroids: Golum Moves!
« Reply #259 on: September 25, 2012, 10:57:02 am »

Its like stealing a puppy. And that's terrible.

Not as terrible as stealing half a puppy.
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Puzzlemaker

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Re: Grandroids: Golum Moves!
« Reply #260 on: September 25, 2012, 01:21:33 pm »

That was awesome, thanks for the update.

How DO babies choose what to play with?  It seems they have some instinct that lets them play effectively.  I mean, at first they just fling their arms about, but after awhile they get good enough to learn to grab things.

I suppose it comes down to this:  They try something random until they find an effect they haven't experienced yet, then they master it.  You see babies often doing repetitive motions.  Doing X feels like Y, so let me do X again a little differently to see how Y changes.  Once I have the relationship of X to Y mapped out, I move on to the next activity.  If that makes sense.
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lordcooper

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Re: Grandroids: Golum Moves!
« Reply #261 on: December 10, 2012, 04:56:12 am »


With any luck this could mean backers get something to toy around with within the next month or two.
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JWNoctis

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Re: Grandroids: Golum Moves!
« Reply #262 on: December 10, 2012, 05:33:01 am »

Oh my...Why didn't I back this.

However I still couldn't understand how much different this is from your average Norn's decision lobe grid with maybe 10x more nouns and verbs and asynchronously clocked. I'd better read the whole thing again.

Really hope this would work out.
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Neonivek

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Re: Grandroids: Golum Moves!
« Reply #263 on: December 10, 2012, 05:39:51 am »

Glad things are still going well.

Frankly this project has sort of gotten to a very scary part in my oppinion. The part where I have to question myself philosophically.

I do wonder though if these creatures will end up doing Martial arts. Not in the sense of combat but in the terms of trying to improve basic actions over time and teaching it.
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lordcooper

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Re: Grandroids: Golum Moves!
« Reply #264 on: December 10, 2012, 05:50:55 am »

I do wonder though if these creatures will end up doing Martial arts. Not in the sense of combat but in the terms of trying to improve basic actions over time and teaching it.

I'm not sure about actually teaching (although how amazingly cool would that be?), but the former seems almost inevitable.  I could see them learning though observation too.
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Neonivek

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Re: Grandroids: Golum Moves!
« Reply #265 on: December 10, 2012, 05:53:02 am »

The Norns had teaching. Not including some form of intentional teaching would just be a incredibly large step backwards.

Now how much they could teach and what they can teach is something else.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 06:11:34 am by Neonivek »
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JWNoctis

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Re: Grandroids: Golum Moves!
« Reply #266 on: December 10, 2012, 06:20:48 am »

A Norn's teaching behavior is largely scripted. However, spontaneous complex behaviors like teaching would get us quite a bit closer to the Singularly.

And, actually, how could we know we're not living in such a simulation right now?

This is scary.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 06:40:26 am by JWNoctis »
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Girlinhat

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Re: Grandroids: Golum Moves!
« Reply #267 on: December 10, 2012, 09:42:35 am »

I love how this game is still under pre-alpha development and is already causing moral issues and fear.  Gonna be a good 'un.

Anvilfolk

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Re: Grandroids: Golum Moves!
« Reply #268 on: December 10, 2012, 11:20:02 am »

I think the whole thing where you try to simulate the human brain actually creates those questions. He is implementing a simplified version of this. Hasn't this been discussed here at some point?

Some researchers are currently trying to build digital version of brains. I think they've got part of the brain of a rat down. They use lots and lots and lots of minimally capable CPUs to realise the function of neurons. I think synapses might be the problem, but basically... Is life and consciousness defined by its very existence or by its physical support? I feel it's relatively clear the support doesn't matter... if you create artificial neurons and connect them, and a sentient entity emerges (by the same processes that they emerge from our brains), then ... it's a "person", and should have rights.

Then it becomes really scary when you think all it takes is a power-outage to kill it. At least temporarily.

Oh, I think I remember the talk we had. I think it was about norns having the capability of realising the passing of time, and of their limited existence in a virtual world. Imagine they knew when you exited the program, they ceased to exist. That they knew time had passed, somehow. And even, what are the moral implications of temporarily turning off some sentient being that does not (and possibly cannot) know time has passed...

It's awesome stuff, but we need to tread carefully. I mean, look at Skynet.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 05:43:28 pm by Anvilfolk »
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Girlinhat

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Re: Grandroids: Golum Moves!
« Reply #269 on: December 10, 2012, 12:17:53 pm »

Well, if you remove air from a human, even just a moment, they die.  Why is electricity so different?

I read an interesting series of novels by Alastair Reynolds.  In it, there exists a sort of 'cult society' who lives abstracted away from regular humans.  They've taken cybernetics and neurology to the extremes, and part of that is to take a human's brain, and use nanobots to pluck out each neuron and replace it with a bit of cable and a tiny CPU.  Repeated over the whole brain, then you end up with an exact human brain formed from wires and cables that can transmit information infinitely faster.  Would this 'gradually replaced' brain be human?  If so, then if the nanobots made a copy of the brain exactly as they were doing it, then would this identical brain be considered a human brain?

The same series also had virtual intelligences, ranging from Gamma to Alpha, with Gamma being mostly touch-tone phone machines that could process basic voice commands, Betas being a copy of the brain via a scan, and Alphas being such an invasive copy that they destroyed the original brain when created.  It was highly debated if the Alpha VIs were actually sentient, and difficult to tell.  They acknowledged their artificial origins, but always persisted that they were different from the others.  They couldn't explain exactly how, but they believed themselves to be somehow more advanced and aware of themselves.  So they passed the turing test, because they thought of themselves as self-aware.  But then, was this actual sentience, or were they just programmed to declare that they were sentient?
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