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Author Topic: Funny thing about embarks...  (Read 1827 times)

Sutremaine

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Funny thing about embarks...
« on: February 28, 2011, 05:34:33 pm »

Of the 2D, 40d, 31.18, and 31.19 versions, only in 40d has it really mattered what was underground. 2D it was all the same, 31.18 had tons of everything plus water and magma on all sites, and in 31.19 you ain't getting crap for metals. Or rather, you are getting crap for metals. A whole biome's worth of crap.

I wonder if Toady really wants it to matter where the player embarks? If everything's underground, you don't need trade. If nothing's underground, trade is everything.

Just thinking out loud I guess.
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EveryZig

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Re: Funny thing about embarks...
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2011, 05:39:40 pm »

It matters what's underground (not technically underground, but still) if you have a volcano. I like not needing fuel for things, so I always go for a volcano (and some kind of water source, though I suppose caverns might provide that).

Is there a way to get water from a cavern that can't be used as a shortcut into your fort by a flying/swimming/building-destroying FB?
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ThrowerOfStones

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Re: Funny thing about embarks...
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2011, 05:43:48 pm »

Of the 2D, 40d, 31.18, and 31.19 versions, only in 40d has it really mattered what was underground. 2D it was all the same, 31.18 had tons of everything plus water and magma on all sites, and in 31.19 you ain't getting crap for metals. Or rather, you are getting crap for metals. A whole biome's worth of crap.

I wonder if Toady really wants it to matter where the player embarks? If everything's underground, you don't need trade. If nothing's underground, trade is everything.

Just thinking out loud I guess.

In 3.18 there was a HUGE difference between sedimentary and other biomes in terms of the viability of iron production.

In 3.19, it matters enormously where you embark. Some sites have loads of metal, others none.

Given your statements about embark location are completely innacurate to begin with, I don't think it bears to comment on whether Toady "intends" for it to matter.
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ivze

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Re: Funny thing about embarks...
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2011, 05:47:27 pm »

Is there a way to get water from a cavern that can't be used as a shortcut into your fort by a flying/swimming/building-destroying FB?

A well from above the cave to leave non-flying FB down and a hallway, full of doors + cages is likely to save you. Cages are for things like Giant Cave Swallows. Doors are for the FB. As far as I have observed it, upon finding a door FBs get busy destroying it rather than promoting further. It will give you some time to wall the well after seeing 'Door destroyed by ...' announcement.
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EveryZig

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Re: Funny thing about embarks...
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2011, 05:49:28 pm »

Can wells go through open retracting bridges?
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Moosey

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Re: Funny thing about embarks...
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2011, 05:52:09 pm »

When making a fort in a cavern, I usually make a large reservoir a few Z levels below a cavern lake.  I fill the reservoir from above, leaving a space in front of the floodgate so I can seal it with a constructed wall to keep FBs out.  This wall can be deconstructed later if I need to re-fill the reservoir.

So the top level of the reservoir looks something like this:
######
##...#######
#<.o..WX...
##...#######
######

< is stairs up
X is the floodgate
W is where the constructed wall goes
o is a channed out space with a well directly above
the lake is off to the right somewhere
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plisskin

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Re: Funny thing about embarks...
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2011, 05:57:21 pm »

I hope that dynamic site surveying will be important in future releases. Y'know, once the billion other things everyone wants are done. It'd be nice to have a dwarf around who could "see through stone" and detect the likely locations of veins/clusters by walking around examining the walls and layers of rock, like how a bookkeeper tracks records.

Since the Caravan Arc is all about making trade more important I'm guessing that ultimately your embark location won't determine if you'll be trading but what you'll be trading in order to prosper. Desert embarks will probably export a lot of glass, forest embarks a lot of food/booze/wood, volcanos for metal bars. And so on.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 06:00:34 pm by plisskin »
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EveryZig

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Re: Funny thing about embarks...
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2011, 07:17:19 pm »

*Tested:* You CAN have an active well with an retracted bridge beneath it.
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Sutremaine

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Re: Funny thing about embarks...
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2011, 06:56:50 pm »

In 3.18 there was a HUGE difference between sedimentary and other biomes in terms of the viability of iron production.

In 3.19, it matters enormously where you embark. Some sites have loads of metal, others none.
What about things that aren't iron? In .18 you would get a good spread of metals and stones on a site because everything that could appear in a layer stone had enough opportunities to do so.

In .19 you get lots and lots of very few types of metals. As a test I embarked on an area that had, between its three biomes, at least three shallow and three deep metals plus flux. The result was five different types of ore, three of which don't do anything that stone and wood can't do. If the embark finder lists the presence of metals without listing any stone types, there should be some meaning to the information beyond 'small chance of something useful'. Had one of the metals turned out to be iron ore, that would have been good for a weapons industry. But the central problem would still have remained. There's not enough mineral variety underground. Iron and steel are good and all*, but the geology of an embark should hold some interest. Once you've figured out which few gems and non-layer stones you have on-site, there's no point in digging around for goodies.

Maybe this will be less annoying when the trading changes are done, but that's a quality of your civ and neighbours and not the embark itself. I think the real problem is that the only ores that really do anything are the weapon ores. If you could use lead in glassmaking, or use specific metals in a way that has an impact on manufacturing beyond changing the material something is made out of, then they'd have a place in the site finder. As it is you might as well ignore whatever the map tells you about mineral composition as long as it isn't 'no metal anywhere'.

*Well-trained dwarves in leather and bone are still pretty good at taking on marksgobbos in a frontal assault. Give the enemy something to charge at and then drop down behind them, and there'll be even fewer chances for them to make meaningful attacks.

Is there a way to get water from a cavern that can't be used as a shortcut into your fort by a flying/swimming/building-destroying FB?
Just an idea: Have a pump between cavern and reservoir, and fill the path between reservoir and pump with multiple fortifications. Things can be pushed through fortifications if there's flow, but if something destroys the only source of flow en route to the fortifications then it can't be pushed through.
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I am trying to make chickens lay bees as eggs. So far it only produces a single "Tame Small Creature" when a hen lays bees.
Honestly at the time, I didn't see what could go wrong with crowding 80 military Dwarves into a small room with a necromancer for the purpose of making bacon.

EveryZig

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Re: Funny thing about embarks...
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2011, 07:14:42 pm »

Actually (and I have arena tested this), swimming creatures can pass through any fortification that is 7/7 submerged (magma counts if the creature can magma swim)
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Lemunde

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Re: Funny thing about embarks...
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2011, 07:31:23 pm »

In my experience creatures coming in through fortifications is a pretty rare occurrence. I think I've seen only one FB do this which was dispatched easily. Of course those kinds of cisterns are only necessary if there's no surface water or no aquifer. Smart embarking can solve this problem before it starts, even in scorching desert biomes.
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EveryZig

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Re: Funny thing about embarks...
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2011, 07:43:23 pm »

In my experience creatures coming in through fortifications is a pretty rare occurrence. I think I've seen only one FB do this which was dispatched easily. Of course those kinds of cisterns are only necessary if there's no surface water or no aquifer. Smart embarking can solve this problem before it starts, even in scorching desert biomes.
When one wants (as I do) a volcano and some kind of metal, 'smart embarking' tends to involve lots of advanced world gens made to each have lots of volcanoes (but not enough to make civs cease to exist). (Which is what I end up doing)
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Brandstone

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Re: Funny thing about embarks...
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2011, 07:48:59 pm »

I'm more disgruntled about the hoops I have to jump to find limestone and sand than the change in metals. It's especially frustrating that clay made it into the finder before sand.

j0nas

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Re: Funny thing about embarks...
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2011, 08:18:30 pm »

I'm more disgruntled about the hoops I have to jump to find limestone and sand than the change in metals. It's especially frustrating that clay made it into the finder before sand.
Haha.  You're right of course, but I just found that funny.  Welcome to Dwarf Potter Fortress.
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EveryZig

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Re: Funny thing about embarks...
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2011, 08:26:44 pm »

Once clay actually become useful for storage/brewing without excessive stockpile maneuvering I suspect will like it much more than glass. HAving both would be best, of course.
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