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[PopeRichardCorey]

I just have to still say it's not really the game's fault.

Of course no actual arguments backing your statement are necessary.  You just have to say that, for no real reason with no support whatsoever.  Okay.

That would be because I already made the arguments and this is a disagreement of opinion, not really of fact.  The debate is about what makes this fact about the game a flaw, not about whether there's a fact or not.

Though as Mickey pointed out, my pretty clearly primarily joke argument about FPS was pretty devoid of anything actual.

And I'm not saying that this game doesn't have flaws.  Indeed, FPS and the UI are flaws.  My argument is that the game isn't to be blamed for that; there's nothing to be done at the moment.  And I originally made the statement to make it clear that we weren't just bitching about this wonderful free game. 

I don't really understand why trying not to be an ungrateful douche turned into a freaking federal case.

[Sutremaine]

It wasn't clearly a joke though.

[PopeRichardCorey]

It wasn't clearly a joke though.

Iiiii  feel like it was pretty obviously tongue in cheek.  I mean, bringing up black ops computers and conspiracy theorists, not usually something you do when trying to make a serious point.  At least not me.

[j0nas]

I just have to still say it's not really the game's fault.

Of course no actual arguments backing your statement are necessary.  You just have to say that, for no real reason with no support whatsoever.  Okay.

That would be because I already made the arguments and this is a disagreement of opinion, not really of fact.  The debate is about what makes this fact about the game a flaw, not about whether there's a fact or not.

If that is the case, then simply reiterating 'well I still think you're wrong so there' without actually bringing anything new to the table is ultimately pointless and a waste of a perfectly good post.

I don't really understand why trying not to be an ungrateful douche turned into a freaking federal case.

Because this is where your arguments are at.  'the other side are ungrateful douches'.  'I don't need to back my opinions up with sound reasoning, because they're just my opinions and are worth hearing in their own right'.  'why are people arguing instead of agreeing with me'

[Caz]

dwarf therapist and stonesense.

[TheyTarget]

@ jOnas and  PopeRichardCorey
First- Flaw- a feature that mars the perfection of something
The fact people have to rely on a third party application would make it a flaw, since it prevents DF from reaching perfection (Practically unobtainable anyways). Though the other side to this is if you don't need dwarf therapists and you see this doesn't effect the game negatively then it is not a flaw. This all depends on the subjective nature of perfection. As they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So if you feel this doesn't need to be fixed then it's not preventing perfection and not a flaw, while if you do it is a flaw. You can argue either way but this remains about personal opinion so you can both be right.

Second- DF is in Alpha Stages (probably always will be), and is actively being worked on. Flaws are expected and we should all be bringing them to Toady's attention so he can better fix the game and bringing it closer to perfection.


Personally I could play with or without Dwarf Therapists. It feels kinda like using a wheelchair to me even though I have two legs. The only thing I actually consistently use it for is to disable professions on migrants when they arrive, the rest I can keep track of no problem.

[PopeRichardCorey]

@ jOnas and  PopeRichardCorey
First- Flaw- a feature that mars the perfection of something
The fact people have to rely on a third party application would make it a flaw, since it prevents DF from reaching perfection (Practically unobtainable anyways). Though the other side to this is if you don't need dwarf therapists and you see this doesn't effect the game negatively then it is not a flaw. This all depends on the subjective nature of perfection. As they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So if you feel this doesn't need to be fixed then it's not preventing perfection and not a flaw, while if you do it is a flaw. You can argue either way but this remains about personal opinion so you can both be right.

Second- DF is in Alpha Stages (probably always will be), and is actively being worked on. Flaws are expected and we should all be bringing them to Toady's attention so he can better fix the game and bringing it closer to perfection.

I applaud you sir or madam.  Everything you said about perfection and personal opinion is pretty much exactly what I have been trying, and apparently completely failing, to say throughout this third page.

[Mickey Blue]

I don't really understand why trying not to be an ungrateful douche turned into a freaking federal case.

Pointing out that a game, even a free one, has flaws is not being an ungrateful douche, at least not automatically.  Toady has supplied one of the best games I have ever played, I have been playing this game longer then almost every game I've ever played and certainly more then any game I've played in the past five years (earlier in my life, when games were fewer and farther between, you tended to play them longer), and he's done all of this for free.

That said, the game has flaws, flaws that I feel will eventually be worked out but pretending it doesn't, or never mentioning them because doing so would make you an 'ungrateful douche' in some people's eyes, is absurd.

-MB

[PopeRichardCorey]

I don't really understand why trying not to be an ungrateful douche turned into a freaking federal case.

Pointing out that a game, even a free one, has flaws is not being an ungrateful douche, at least not automatically.  Toady has supplied one of the best games I have ever played, I have been playing this game longer then almost every game I've ever played and certainly more then any game I've played in the past five years (earlier in my life, when games were fewer and farther between, you tended to play them longer), and he's done all of this for free.

That said, the game has flaws, flaws that I feel will eventually be worked out but pretending it doesn't, or never mentioning them because doing so would make you an 'ungrateful douche' in some people's eyes, is absurd.

-MB

Of course saying a game has flaws does not make one an ungrateful douche.  We have a bug tracker for a reason.  And I didn't mean to say that anyone was actually being an ungrateful douche.  But saying "this game is unplayable" does not at least SOUND a little bit mega douchey to you?  And I say this having expressed the same thought on the first page, that being why I tried to explain.  And then promptly got attacked like a kobold discovered in the middle of a barracks.

[Ghills]

Re: Derail,  No one cares about your opinions here. The OP didn't start up a thread about utilities so that you two could start an argument. If you really need to keep going, do it on a thread for that topic.

My approach to games has always been that fun should be fun, and I stick with that for DF. I usually use DwarfTherapist and DFHack. I recently started using Soundsense, which has made a good experience into a great one.  Megaconstruction works a lot better with a 3D utility; I'm partial to Stonesense. 

[Rez]

Dwarf therapist on sort by migration waves makes df playable for me.  My forts always have someone who is decent in a skill migrating but not having it activated.  How you find and fix this problem in a wave of 20+ immigrants, which I get almost every fort, is beyond me.  Toady and the dev for dwarf therapist really should package the two programs, since using dwarf therapist massively improves df.

DFhack is a useful utility, if you're a cheater .

Stonesense is nice.  Haven't used it recently.  Fortress Overseer looks pretty good too.

[Sutremaine]

It feels kinda like using a wheelchair to me even though I have two legs. The only thing I actually consistently use it for is to disable professions on migrants when they arrive, the rest I can keep track of no problem.

I take it your job assignments are tidier than mine. I enable jobs on everyone in the beginning, assign random slackers to whatever needs doing right now, hand out mason, carpentry, and mechanic duties like they're hauling jobs... I could lose track of 25 dwarves very easily.

DFhack has a non-cheating use or two -- DFprobe is invaluble when working with temperature-sensitive items.

[Ghills]

But what's a cheater? Who decides what constitutes 'the rules' in a game that we each play individually?  My philosophy has always been that entertainment is what entertains me. If someone else wants to do it differently, more fun to them! But I don't call them a cheater for playing differently, and dislike it when other people try to shame me for playing differently.

[PopeRichardCorey]

DFhack is a useful utility, if you're a cheater .

Hey, it's got two utilities that are VERY helpful in non cheaty ways!  It has the one that cleans contaminants, which really does save FPS (though if you use it to clean up FB contaminants, that's cheating) and the one that lets you designate a whole vein of metal or gems for digging, which makes things much quicker!  As soon as the dwarves get out that first gem, they're going to see the ones behind it, and it makes perfect sense for them to dig those out right away.

It feels kinda like using a wheelchair to me even though I have two legs. The only thing I actually consistently use it for is to disable professions on migrants when they arrive, the rest I can keep track of no problem.

I take it your job assignments are tidier than mine. I enable jobs on everyone in the beginning, assign random slackers to whatever needs doing right now, hand out mason, carpentry, and mechanic duties like they're hauling jobs... I could lose track of 25 dwarves very easily.

That's actually not a terrible idea.  It lets the dwarves develop skills and then you could decide what they are...  It's kind of inefficient, but it could definitely have its merits.

[TheyTarget]

It feels kinda like using a wheelchair to me even though I have two legs. The only thing I actually consistently use it for is to disable professions on migrants when they arrive, the rest I can keep track of no problem.

I take it your job assignments are tidier than mine. I enable jobs on everyone in the beginning, assign random slackers to whatever needs doing right now, hand out mason, carpentry, and mechanic duties like they're hauling jobs... I could lose track of 25 dwarves very easily.

DFhack has a non-cheating use or two -- DFprobe is invaluble when working with temperature-sensitive items.

I do the same as you when I'm doing mega projects and the like. But when I'm running a fort for the sake of a fort I tend to have it all very neat with specialized dwarves to the point I start remembering them all by name and giving them personalities. Everyone after 80 though is usually some form of specialized hauler and I only care about the captains of squads in the military.