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[malroth]

Have an animal stockpile overrun by caged Elven merchants and goblin invaders? Have a bone setter who cant tell the difference between a broken leg and a bruised brain?   Two sad sad problems with one happy solution,  a job that can be dedicated to a caged, non-pet animal/prisoner, "Perform experimental surgery"  in which case your haulers would drag it down to an empty traction bench and strap it down,  and your Medical team would proceed to practice their craft repeatedly on the volunteer untill it is either re assigned to a cage or stops breathing.  The medical team gets rapid skill ups from the educational experiment, and you free up a cage to catch something else.

[Kogut]

It may fix stupid trick with dropping your own haulers from 2-z drop to train your medics.

[Max White]

Have an animal stockpile overrun by caged Elven merchants and goblin invaders? Have a bone setter who cant tell the difference between a broken leg and a bruised brain?   Two sad sad problems with one happy solution,  a job that can be dedicated to a caged, non-pet animal/prisoner, "Perform experimental surgery"  in which case your haulers would drag it down to an empty traction bench and strap it down,  and your Medical team would proceed to practice their craft repeatedly on the volunteer untill it is either re assigned to a cage or stops breathing.  The medical team gets rapid skill ups from the educational experiment, and you free up a cage to catch something else.

Dear god, that is some what sadistic.
Ok, I will support, as long as dwarfs will also attempt to fix up prisoners who have injured parts. Therefor, when artificial limbs get implemented, we can butcher a goblin, and build him again stronger, then release him in an arena with a forgotten beast.

[Kogut]

It also may be ethic thing: IMPOSSIBLE to use prisoners for this, but animals are OK.

[Granite26]

Go Vivisection

[blizzerd]

what about this:

a setting that can be changed in the nobles menu


-make the medics try to operate wounded pets/livestock for training*
-make the medics try to operate prisoners*
-surgically experiment on livestock/pets**
-surgically experiment on prisoners**
-surgically experiment on citizens**
-make the medics do nothing to livestock and prisoners (deselects all)

*with the intent of healing the target primary
**with the intent of learning the craft primary, more risky to do negative damage but learns craft quicker, will heal the target normally if successful

then with each choice comes effects on the medics, for example;
urist felt powerless to the suffering of a wounded prisoner/pet/livestock lately, (unhappy feeling from not allowed to help the injured prisoners/pets)
urist felt remorse from unethical surgery and suffering he inflicted on a prisoner/pet/livestock for personal knowledge lately (unhappy feeling from experimenting on a prisoner)
urist became indifferent to unethical practises and the suffering of others (from extended experiments to sentient beings)
urist was satisfied to have prevented unneeded suffering of prisoners (operation on a prisoner to help him out)
urist was satisfied from the chance to train his craft on replaceable material lately (experiment on a prisoner or pet or livestock while the dwarf has low ethic value)

[Erkki]

Dwarves feeling remorse for unethical surgery and suffering inflicted on Goblin/Elven prisoners? You realize these are same folks that think science 75% finding out new ways to kill people?

[malroth]

Dwarves feeling remorse for unethical surgery and suffering inflicted on Goblin/Elven prisoners? You realize these are same folks that think science 75% finding out new ways to kill people?

Yes  but they're also the same people who slaughter 50 of their fortmates in a fit of grief if their kitten wanders under a bridge.

what about this:

a setting that can be changed in the nobles menu


-make the medics try to operate wounded pets/livestock for training*
-make the medics try to operate prisoners*
-surgically experiment on livestock/pets**
-surgically experiment on prisoners**
-surgically experiment on citizens**
-make the medics do nothing to livestock and prisoners (deselects all)

*with the intent of healing the target primary
**with the intent of learning the craft primary, more risky to do negative damage but learns craft quicker, will heal the target normally if successful

then with each choice comes effects on the medics, for example;
urist felt powerless to the suffering of a wounded prisoner/pet/livestock lately, (unhappy feeling from not allowed to help the injured prisoners/pets)
urist felt remorse from unethical surgery and suffering he inflicted on a prisoner/pet/livestock for personal knowledge lately (unhappy feeling from experimenting on a prisoner)
urist became indifferent to unethical practises and the suffering of others (from extended experiments to sentient beings)
urist was satisfied to have prevented unneeded suffering of prisoners (operation on a prisoner to help him out)
urist was satisfied from the chance to train his craft on replaceable material lately (experiment on a prisoner or pet or livestock while the dwarf has low ethic value)

Great ideas i fully support this. It will also will be handy if Brainwashing Reforming of prisoners is ever implemented. If you heal your prisoners wounds, feed them Lavish meals, give them the finest booze, and generally get them happier than they were in their former life for long enough there should be a chance that they decide to defect.

[Demonsul]

Cut open Goblin brain.
Miniaturize water reactor.
Invent water-driven electronics.
Insert.
Cut open goblin arm.
Insert mechanisms.
Deploy super soldier during elven siege.

...

Wait, not that kind of experimental? Dammit.

Nevertheless, I support this. Good stuff.

[NW_Kohaku]

Cut open Goblin brain.
Miniaturize water reactor.
Invent water-driven electronics.
Insert.
Cut open goblin arm.
Insert mechanisms.
Deploy super soldier during elven siege.

...

Wait, not that kind of experimental? Dammit.

Nevertheless, I support this. Good stuff.

Yes, if B-grade horror movies have taught us anything, it's that nothing ever goes wrong when you take a batch of xenophobic mass-murderers, and try to perform deranged experiments to make them into "super soldiers".

It's Fun on a bun!

I also highly doubt that Toady will ever really let us go completely Dr. Mangele on prisoners, if only because of ethics restraints.  I don't think he really appreciates all the horrid, horrid things we make our dwarves do because they don't understand what we are making them do.

[Di]

Yes, if B-grade horror movies have taught us anything, it's that nothing ever goes wrong when you take a batch of xenophobic mass-murderers, and try to perform deranged experiments to make them into "super soldiers".

Well they're still goblins. If you screw up with the arena planning, you'll get FUN.

I also highly doubt that Toady will ever really let us go completely Dr. Mangele on prisoners, if only because of ethics restraints.  I don't think he really appreciates all the horrid, horrid things we make our dwarves do because they don't understand what we are making them do.

I agree, of all horrible things that were done in DF, Toady made nothing that would directly allow them. It was us, who were (ab)using features he implemented in ways he didn't intend them to be used.
Thus said, we don't need settings to allow medical experiments. Give us a possibility to mark those non-citizens whom we want our doctors to treat (if those won't resist). We'll get them require medical help by ourselves.
This would also be neat to cure those caravan guards who got their guts popped out fighting siege or titan attacking out fortresses.

[Dynastia]

Letting your surgeons experiment on dead citizens would be a saner and more realistic alternative. The price of knowledge could be that it really upsets the subject's friends and family ; especially those who have  "traditionalist" personality traits.

Perhaps it could even be subject to mayoral bans, and trainee surgeons could find themselves thrown into ye olde dungeon for graverobbing.

[Unfrozen Caveman]

I like this idea and think a good path for implementation would be in the hospital zone settings, with a default setting that only "treat injured dwarves" is on and all others are off.

Others could include:
Treat injured pets
Treat injured tame animals
Treat injured friends (elves, friendly tigermen, etc.)
Train on injured pets
Train on injured tame animals
Train on injured wild animals
Train on hostiles/invaders
Train on corpses (wild animals)
Train on corpses (tame)
Train on corpses (pets)
Train on corpses (sentient, non-dwarf)
Train on corpses (dwarf)

[Unfrozen Caveman]

Enabling training could allow for experienced doctors to teach students.  Cadavers would be good for that and they should work better if they're anatomically similar to dwarves.

[Erkki]

Or just make the current medical skills not rust at all, and/or gain exp quicker. As it is now, when someone gets hurt in my fort there is no one with any kind of skills to save them. At least I rarely get immigrants to cover all the medical skills with 5+ skilled dwarves...