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[Girlinhat]

So, I embarked good.  I've got like EVERYTHING available, in .19.  Well not everything, but enough.  Point is, I'm looking at my regular embark profile, where I bring along malachite and cassiterite, and realized that I have access to bismunthinite.  Normally not a fan of it's funky yellow color, I realized that it's cheaper.  Malachite is 6, so is cassiterite, but bismunthinite is 3.  Now, when crafting bars for use in armor, it takes 1 copper and 1 tin for 2 bars of bronze, which means 1 cassiterite and 1 malachite, totaling 12 cost, or 6 per bar.  Bismuth Bronze, takes 2 copper, 1 tin, and 1 bismuth.  That's 2 malachite, 1 cassiterite, 1 bismunthinite, totaling 21, giving 4 bars for 5.25 per bar.  That means you can save .75 embark points by taking the ingredients for bismuth bronze instead of regular bronze.  While not a big deal in itself, I'm looking at about 100 bars for this embark, which is a full 75 points saved, although it will cost me extra steps in smelting (more trees to burn!).  That's enough to bring along a slew of butcherable animals, or egg-layers, or assign points to combat dwarves, etc.  It's also easier to buy bismuth bronze ingredients from caravans, since you can order 2 copper ores, 1 tin ore, and 1 bismuth ore.  Since there's only 1 tin ore, you'll only get so much tin, and have leftover copper normally, unless you make it bismuth, and you can pull in more ore per caravan and more production power.

So, that little 2:30AM epiphany aside, anyone else found interesting cost-shaving methods to extort your economy?

[Hans Lemurson]

That's a good idea for importing as much metal into your fortress as you can, but it's not so good from the fuel-efficiency standpoint.  Bronze costs 0.5 fuel per bar, and Bismuth-Bronze costs 1.25 fuel per bar.  That's a difference of 0.75 fuel .  If you offset this by bringing along extra bituminous coal, then that will cost you 1.5 points per unit of fuel, or 1.125 points for the 0.75 extra fuel needed for the bismuth-bronze.

Given the price of fuel, unless you expect to have abundant supplies of it at your embark location, I would advise going for regular Bronze rather than it's Bismuth-infused cousin.  Fundamentally though it all has to do with what your most limiting factor is: Metal or Fuel?


As an aside:  Isn't it odd how in Dwarf Fortress, colonies import raw materials and export masses of cheap manufactured goods?  Aren't colonies usually set-up to provide raw materials for the much more highly industrialized homeland which has the infrastructure to produce manufactured goods much more cheaply than can be done in the colonies?

[IronyOwl]

Leather is cheaper than string or cloth. Ores are cheaper than bars. Plump helmets are a lot more expensive than their equivalent in meat and the number of seeds you'd get. Any kind of manufactured good is usually right out, since you can just bring the materials and then make it on-site. Actually, I guess any kind of processed raw material is also usually right out, as with ore vs bars or string vs cloth.

I tend not to bother with making your own axe or pickaxe on site, though. In addition to the slight delay and inconvenience, you need to make sure you've brought exactly all the right stuff.


As Hans pointed out, these calculations can change somewhat depending on your fuel situation. A glacier fort just isn't the same as a swamp.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Hans: Currently there isn't much of a tech base to develop. Bring two fire-resistant building materials plus an anvil and you're ready to build a metalworking industry. Right now the more important factor is raw materials.

[FGK dwarf]

Hans: Currently there isn't much of a tech base to develop. Bring two fire-resistant building materials plus an anvil and you're ready to build a metalworking industry. Right now the more important factor is raw materials.

Also, in pre-industrial times, raw materials were often hard to transport because of their weight and bulk. Much early manufacturing industry was based right on top of ore deposits. This only really changed when canals and railways were developed from the eighteenth century onwards.

A plausible colonial economic relationship for Dwarf Fortress would involve smelting ores in the fortress, and then exporting the refined metal as bars or ingots.

[Brandstone]

Sand bags are significantly cheaper than bags.

[ThrowerOfStones]

That's a good idea for importing as much metal into your fortress as you can, but it's not so good from the fuel-efficiency standpoint.  Bronze costs 0.5 fuel per bar, and Bismuth-Bronze costs 1.25 fuel per bar.  That's a difference of 0.75 fuel .  If you offset this by bringing along extra bituminous coal, then that will cost you 1.5 points per unit of fuel, or 1.125 points for the 0.75 extra fuel needed for the bismuth-bronze.

Given the price of fuel, unless you expect to have abundant supplies of it at your embark location, I would advise going for regular Bronze rather than it's Bismuth-infused cousin.  Fundamentally though it all has to do with what your most limiting factor is: Metal or Fuel?


As an aside:  Isn't it odd how in Dwarf Fortress, colonies import raw materials and export masses of cheap manufactured goods?  Aren't colonies usually set-up to provide raw materials for the much more highly industrialized homeland which has the infrastructure to produce manufactured goods much more cheaply than can be done in the colonies?

Why aren't you using Magma?

[janglur]

So, I embarked good.  I've got like EVERYTHING available, in .19.  Well not everything, but enough.  Point is, I'm looking at my regular embark profile, where I bring along malachite and cassiterite, and realized that I have access to bismunthinite.  Normally not a fan of it's funky yellow color, I realized that it's cheaper.  Malachite is 6, so is cassiterite, but bismunthinite is 3.  Now, when crafting bars for use in armor, it takes 1 copper and 1 tin for 2 bars of bronze, which means 1 cassiterite and 1 malachite, totaling 12 cost, or 6 per bar.  Bismuth Bronze, takes 2 copper, 1 tin, and 1 bismuth.  That's 2 malachite, 1 cassiterite, 1 bismunthinite, totaling 21, giving 4 bars for 5.25 per bar.  That means you can save .75 embark points by taking the ingredients for bismuth bronze instead of regular bronze.  While not a big deal in itself, I'm looking at about 100 bars for this embark, which is a full 75 points saved, although it will cost me extra steps in smelting (more trees to burn!).  That's enough to bring along a slew of butcherable animals, or egg-layers, or assign points to combat dwarves, etc.  It's also easier to buy bismuth bronze ingredients from caravans, since you can order 2 copper ores, 1 tin ore, and 1 bismuth ore.  Since there's only 1 tin ore, you'll only get so much tin, and have leftover copper normally, unless you make it bismuth, and you can pull in more ore per caravan and more production power.

So, that little 2:30AM epiphany aside, anyone else found interesting cost-shaving methods to extort your economy?

DFFD of the map, please?

[Nirreln]

So, that little 2:30AM epiphany aside, anyone else found interesting cost-shaving methods to extort your economy?

Bringing milk instead of meat/fish for food, each unit of milk only costs one point instead of two for the cheapest meat. And using wooden training axes for my wood cutter instead of a metal one.

[Maklak]

I once decided to embark with 10 wood, 5 granite, 3 granite blocks, 20 copper ore, 20 tin ore, and 15 coal, or something like that. It worked great, I had enough bronze for a few picks, axes, and armor pieces. After that it was enough to order each of my starting 7 to make 1 armor and 1 weapon. I also cheated on barrels, made lavish meals to make room, and turned local bushes into booze. This only works in relatively calm surroundings, as making all these workshops on the surface takes time.

Taking 1 meat of different animals each gets you an extra barrel.

Taking plump helmets and brewing them is cheaper than alcohol. 

Milk -> cheese => cheap food + raises value of lavish meals.

Go for cave spider silk rather than pig tail cloth / thread / ropes. Or maybe leather.

Take normal animals, and train them to war / hunting with kennels.

Take wood rather than buckets, barrels, splints, etc.

For leather armor make a dwarf who's highest skill is ambusher (social skills may not count, I haven't checked putting 1 ambusher on my trader).

Take leather, and not leather armor.

[PopeRichardCorey]

As an aside:  Isn't it odd how in Dwarf Fortress, colonies import raw materials and export masses of cheap manufactured goods?  Aren't colonies usually set-up to provide raw materials for the much more highly industrialized homeland which has the infrastructure to produce manufactured goods much more cheaply than can be done in the colonies?

Have you noticed how much junk you can import from the mountainhomes?  They are sending out colonies to produce more industrial space.  They don't have the room to build any more workshops.  They send their colonies far away because colonies farther from the mountainhomes seem like easier targets to goblins, thus distracting goblin military from the mountainhomes and slowly wiping out every rival civ there is.

[Lamphare]

i used to embark with slightly more expensive breeding animals like cattles, horses
now i just embark with one cat, two dogs(if the biome is not too dangerous i dont even bring dogs), 1 cock and three hens.
many eggs, and eventually, if i do it quickly before young ones gotten mad and start attakcing each other, assigning to other pastures. a couple years later i'd have enough meat and eggs i dont even need to find other none-delicate food source.
and cage traps to seal the entrance, preventing wild brids coming in trying to lay eggs.

since i normally embark on wood land or forest, i'd bring no wood product, maybe except one wood log.
and i bring only a year or less worth of booze and a season worth of food. i'd gather some plants right after embark, and more later if my herbalist is free. also if i use the one unit food per creature type exploit, i'd get enough barrels for further brewage after my dwarves' first meal, saving some precious time in the early development.

i play genesis, so above ground silk webs are quite common.
i'd start building a few looms right after embark, chopping wood down at the same time.
so i dont bring thread and cloth. but if i find the site has not silk web i'd bring just a couple, for emergency.

[Lagslayer]

Stones are very heavy, so requesting a lot of coal and ore will severely limit the amount of stuff the caravan can carry. Not that it's necessarily a bad idea, but it's something to be aware of.

[Hans Lemurson]

Hans: Currently there isn't much of a tech base to develop. Bring two fire-resistant building materials plus an anvil and you're ready to build a metalworking industry. Right now the more important factor is raw materials.

Also, in pre-industrial times, raw materials were often hard to transport because of their weight and bulk. Much early manufacturing industry was based right on top of ore deposits. This only really changed when canals and railways were developed from the eighteenth century onwards.

A plausible colonial economic relationship for Dwarf Fortress would involve smelting ores in the fortress, and then exporting the refined metal as bars or ingots.

Basing industries at the site of the raw materials makes perfect sense, and I'm not objecting to that.  The odd thing I was noting is that you are rewarded for transporting massive quantities of raw materials to the site when you first found it.  Imagine seeing a convoy loaded to the brim with Malachite heading off to found a Copper mine.

Workshops are far too cheap to set up.  Making a smelter involves a lot more labor and materials than just having some half-trained bloke plopping a rough-hewn boulder into place on the ground.

[Lamphare]

we could make tools and other generic/specific building components other than just blocks, bars and logs.
though not too complicated like every detail is presented, i.e. we make wood planks but not long planks and thin ones.
or something like 'metalsmith's tool box' consisting every needed tools from whetstone, tongs to metal oil, with other things like desks, furnace and other furnitures are built with generic building materials, as now we use.
and also workshops should require much more materials, and effort to build. like in real time three or four days to really assemble a fully functioning metalsmith's workshop.
as a alternative to early foudation of a fort, some primitive workshops, like craftdwarf's workshop, kitchen, fishery, furnace, are allowed, assorted with some simple, less efficient workshops with limited types of output, which can only produce tools to other things, and simple weapon/building materials. maybe even stone anvil, that can only be used in simpler version of metalsmith's shop, to essentially produce proper metal anvils. more embark points could be saved if you chose to bring a stone and tools for a mason's workshop to produce a stone anvil. actually you dont even need to bring a stone, just dig some.
with those, really you just need to bring enough food, booze, a couple animals, a handful generic tool box, a few specific building materials if you want to set up an industry faster, some seeds a pick and an axe. sadly a pickaxe could not act as a pick and a axe.
that's essentially what a real seven men dwarve expedition party have, during the time of european colonisation of other 'empty' parts of the world, afaik.