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Poll

Highest Irrelevant American Third-Party Result (Major Party Results Will Be Bullied)

Socialist
- 17 (33.3%)
Green
- 8 (15.7%)
Peace and Freedom
- 2 (3.9%)
Democratic
- 1 (2%)
Transhumanist
- 11 (21.6%)
Libertarian
- 8 (15.7%)
Republican
- 2 (3.9%)
Constitution
- 2 (3.9%)

Total Members Voted: 50


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Author Topic: Shit, let's be Off-Compass Meme Poll Meme  (Read 481032 times)

Graknorke

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Re: Shit, let's be American Political Typology
« Reply #3540 on: August 19, 2014, 04:36:33 am »

Hah, scrubs, I got both genocide ones.

The other was a conflict between "There is no objective truth" and "The holocaust happened roughly as the history books say."
Which is also a non-conflict, because the only judgement it is reasonable for me to make is that the latter is true, given that I don't know an awful lot about the subject from the standpoint of examining it like a historian would.
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notquitethere

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Re: Shit, let's be American Political Typology
« Reply #3541 on: August 19, 2014, 06:26:34 am »

I think a lot of misunderstandings can arise through use of the woolly terms 'objective' and 'subjective'. Sceptics about truth and morality are self-defeating: they'll continue making truth evaluable claims and disapproving when you kick dogs and push over old ladies.
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Helgoland

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Re: Shit, let's be American Political Typology
« Reply #3542 on: August 19, 2014, 09:23:22 am »

"The second World War was a just war."

I answered yes, but I don't think that's something I'd say in public where I live. Poorly worded, indeed

E: One tension.
Quote
There are no objective moral standards; moral judgements are merely an expression of the values of particular cultures

Acts of genocide stand as a testament to man's ability to do great evil.
Those aren't contradictory!
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 09:25:22 am by Helgoland »
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Culise

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Re: Shit, let's be American Political Typology
« Reply #3543 on: August 19, 2014, 09:55:29 am »


Amusing, but ultimately rather strongly biased to their particular viewpoints.  For a people so notionally proud of encompassing a wide range of philosophical viewpoints, they seem to take a very narrow-minded approach to many things, neglecting many nuances in the process.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 10:04:00 am by Culise »
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notquitethere

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Re: Shit, let's be American Political Typology
« Reply #3544 on: August 19, 2014, 10:13:53 am »

Notionally, the "testament of man's ability to do great evil" is fundamentally subjective to me - that is to say, I believe that acts of genocide are evil.  This does not extrapolate necessarily to the values of particular cultures.  As noted, it can be seen in other cultures as not evil, for instance, in the case where such a culture accepts as postulate that said ethnic group is of significant concern, euphemistically speaking, or that it is necessary to remove by force said ethnic group from a region to ensure greater peace for the majority (i.e., a strict utilitarian standpoint).  That said, such acts are not things that I can condone.
But genocide is wrong and that's not a fact purely subjective to just you but a feature of the world and how we use the words 'wrong' and 'genocide'. People in a culture may come to think it's right (this has been historically common), but they're wrong.

The holocaust is an historical reality, taking place more or less as the history books report
Fact and truth are not the same thing.  Truth is a metaphysical concept; the Holocaust is the realm of facts - that is to say, it was an objectively-observed phenomenon.  There is a difference between disagreeing on a truth behind a matter, and disagreeing on the existence of that matter itself.
This is incoherent. If it is a fact that the holocaust took place much as described in the history books, then it is true that is took place much as described.
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Dutchling

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Re: Shit, let's be American Political Typology
« Reply #3545 on: August 19, 2014, 10:19:04 am »

Quote
The second world war was a just war.
Well, that kinda depends on whose point of view we're talking about ...

(or not at all, depending on who you ask, of course)
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Jelle

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Re: Shit, let's be American Political Typology
« Reply #3546 on: August 19, 2014, 10:19:39 am »

Hrm 3 tensions, alright then let's see what we've got.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Remuthra

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Re: Shit, let's be American Political Typology
« Reply #3547 on: August 19, 2014, 10:24:11 am »

As to your last tension, atheism is based not upon the belief in no god but in the lack of belief in one. It's impossible to prove a negative; the truth of the negative must be concluded through rejection of the positive. Similarly, there is no way to prove leprechauns don't exist, but that doesn't mean the conclusion that there are no leprechauns is taken on faith.

Dutchling

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Re: Shit, let's be American Political Typology
« Reply #3548 on: August 19, 2014, 10:26:16 am »

Quote
You disagreed that:
It is quite reasonable to believe in the existence of a thing without even the possibility of evidence for its existence
But agreed that:
Atheism is a faith just like any other, because it is not possible to prove the non-existence of God
I can't find both unreasonable? Neither is provable, both are beliefs and thus irrational.
Maybe because at first you say that proof or evidence is irrelevant, while with the second one it suddenly is?
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Culise

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Re: Shit, let's be American Political Typology
« Reply #3549 on: August 19, 2014, 10:34:37 am »

But genocide is wrong and that's not a fact purely subjective to just you but a feature of the world and how we use the words 'wrong' and 'genocide'. People in a culture may come to think it's right (this has been historically common), but they're wrong.
By your definition and mine, but from their own perspective, it's not wrong - it's not wrong to be right, insofar as they consider it to be right.  That is, however, a distinction made in our distinct concepts of right and wrong and the relative or absolute natures therein, and not in itself a matter of philosophical tension between "irreconcilable" internal opinions.

This is incoherent. If it is a fact that the holocaust took place much as described in the history books, then it is true that is took place much as described.
Sorry, you're entirely correct; how I put it is quite incoherent.  By it, I permitted confusion between two definitions of the word "truth."  Due to being on a philosophical website, I matched "truth" in its initial context with its more common philosophical use, which is far more subjective than "truth" as used to define the veracity of facts and objective occurrences.  I should have been more clear on how the factual existence of the Holocaust does not have any relevance to the existence of more subjective, philosophical "truths."
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Graknorke

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Re: Shit, let's be American Political Typology
« Reply #3550 on: August 19, 2014, 10:44:50 am »

But genocide is wrong and that's not a fact purely subjective to just you but a feature of the world and how we use the words 'wrong' and 'genocide'. People in a culture may come to think it's right (this has been historically common), but they're wrong.
But that's just like, your opinion man.
No really, I have nothing to say about that. It's obvious that you have a set view and won't be swayed from it. But what you just posted isn't any different in reasoning than, say, people who say that being gay is wrong or being of a certain religion is wrong or that couples of different race are wrong are whatever.
"It's just true." Not a real argument.
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TD1

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Re: Shit, let's be American Political Typology
« Reply #3551 on: August 19, 2014, 10:52:12 am »

Also, no doubt someone in a culture deeming genocide to be acceptable may say that not killing, for example, Jews is just wrong. I mean, they may think they're in the right, but they're not.
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Jelle

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Re: Shit, let's be American Political Typology
« Reply #3552 on: August 19, 2014, 11:06:18 am »

As to your last tension, atheism is based not upon the belief in no god but in the lack of belief in one.
Is it though? The definition of atheism seems to vary, going from the disbelief of the existance of any deity to the belief that there is no deity. What I gather atheism as a whole encompasses both ideas, and in my experience it is usually equated to positive atheism. I suppose the question is open to interpretation as to wether it refers to positive or negative atheism.

Quote
You disagreed that:
It is quite reasonable to believe in the existence of a thing without even the possibility of evidence for its existence
But agreed that:
Atheism is a faith just like any other, because it is not possible to prove the non-existence of God
I can't find both unreasonable? Neither is provable, both are beliefs and thus irrational.
Maybe because at first you say that proof or evidence is irrelevant, while with the second one it suddenly is?
No...if you care to note I disagreed with the first statement, implying I do consider the burden of proof important.
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Darvi

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Re: Shit, let's be American Political Typology
« Reply #3553 on: August 19, 2014, 11:08:58 am »

Too many yes/no questions. Only Siths think in absolutes.
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wobbly

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Re: Shit, let's be American Political Typology
« Reply #3554 on: August 19, 2014, 11:11:47 am »

33%. Mini-rant: I also think that test was a bit ridiculous. Hmm, apparently there's a conflict that I think we should protect the environment & that people don't need to always walk if possible. Plus a few of the ones already mentioned. I don't believe in objective truth but I believe the details of the holocust are mostly true is apparently a conflict. Apparently if you believe in subjective truth you should basically "shrug" at every question. I mean, how can I even answer a yes/no survey if I don't believe in objective truth? Surely that's a conflict too?

Edit: I also seriously hope all these surveys are meant as light entertainment/curiousity factor, because if any of them are meant to be real research, my opinion of political/psychological sciences has just plummeted. & considering it was pretty low to start with....
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 11:18:47 am by wobbly »
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