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Poll

Highest Irrelevant American Third-Party Result (Major Party Results Will Be Bullied)

Socialist
- 17 (33.3%)
Green
- 8 (15.7%)
Peace and Freedom
- 2 (3.9%)
Democratic
- 1 (2%)
Transhumanist
- 11 (21.6%)
Libertarian
- 8 (15.7%)
Republican
- 2 (3.9%)
Constitution
- 2 (3.9%)

Total Members Voted: 50


Pages: 1 ... 78 79 [80] 81 82 ... 375

Author Topic: Shit, let's be Off-Compass Meme Poll Meme  (Read 481031 times)

Grakelin

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Re: Shit, lets be Life Quality, THE REVENGE.
« Reply #1185 on: August 10, 2011, 02:50:59 am »

Turns out I did the quiz wrong the first time, and missed a bunch of questions. Here is my addendum, against my original:

Life:    6.5
Mind:    6.7
Body:    6.5
Spirit:    5
Friends/Family:    4.7
Love:    4.3
Finance:    5.2


Life:    6.4
Mind:    6.3
Body:    6.8
Spirit:    5
Friends/Family:    3.7
Love:    4
Finance:    5.2


We have a lot of "0"s on Love here, it seems. Low scores seem pretty standard in that, unless you are in a steady relationship, since I was happy with my situation going through but got a low score.
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I am have extensive knowledge of philosophy and a strong morality
Okay, so, today this girl I know-Lauren, just took a sudden dis-interest in talking to me. Is she just on her period or something?

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Shit, lets be Life Quality, THE REVENGE.
« Reply #1186 on: August 10, 2011, 03:10:08 am »

But it's the exact same thing.
Indeed it was, as was your intent, but that's still not how any nazi group has ever acted.
Quote
You are talking about slavery in the Greco-Roman world as if it was only like the slavery that occured later on. While some of it undeniably was, a great portion of it WASN'T. Only instead of paying their workers in cash, they housed and fed them. And they trained them, as well. You might as well call them servants.

You don't own servants, and servants can quit any time they want.
Quote
And you know what? You are arguing for absolute freedom, when there is absolutely no chance of it succeeding.
No, I am arguing for abolishing slavery because it is a horrible breach of human rights. Luckily, most of the world's slave trade has been destroyed by this point.
Quote
You either get crucified by the Romans, or on the off chance that your revolt succeeds, you no longer have protection given by the Romans, and the Gauls decide to make you their slaves. Which would be a hell of a lot more like the slaves of later eras.
People aren't helpless because they aren't Romans. Let me make myself clear: There are a lot of things worse than getting killed, even than being tortured to death. Being complacent to a slave empire is, as far as I am concerned, one of those things.
Quote
You're basically saying that government should not enforce laws. That nobody should be restricted in anything they do. What's to stop someone killing off the lower class?
That's actually not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that the government should not practice slavery, and the people of a government that practices slavery should rise up to stop them. A level of restriction is needed to live in a civilization, but not that much restriction is actually necessary and is just people imposing their will upon others. I should hope that the police would prevent people from trying to kill off the lower class.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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Dsarker

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Re: Shit, lets be Life Quality, THE REVENGE.
« Reply #1187 on: August 10, 2011, 03:22:32 am »

But it's the exact same thing.
Indeed it was, as was your intent, but that's still not how any nazi group has ever acted.
Quote
You are talking about slavery in the Greco-Roman world as if it was only like the slavery that occured later on. While some of it undeniably was, a great portion of it WASN'T. Only instead of paying their workers in cash, they housed and fed them. And they trained them, as well. You might as well call them servants.

You don't own servants, and servants can quit any time they want.
Oh, there is another thing separating them: servants could usually get a different job. In Greco-Roman times, you were either a farmer, a low class criminal, a rich person, or a slave. In Rome, you also had the senator class.
Quote
Quote
And you know what? You are arguing for absolute freedom, when there is absolutely no chance of it succeeding.
No, I am arguing for abolishing slavery because it is a horrible breach of human rights. Luckily, most of the world's slave trade has been destroyed by this point.
What human rights? Unless you are a Roman Citizen, you don't have rights. And if you do, your rights basically consist of life and being able to be tried for your crimes by the Emperor. Other than that....

Quote
Quote
You either get crucified by the Romans, or on the off chance that your revolt succeeds, you no longer have protection given by the Romans, and the Gauls decide to make you their slaves. Which would be a hell of a lot more like the slaves of later eras.
People aren't helpless because they aren't Romans. Let me make myself clear: There are a lot of things worse than getting killed, even than being tortured to death. Being complacent to a slave empire is, as far as I am concerned, one of those things.
You are going to change NOTHING by your death. Really. In fact, you're more likely to make people scared enough by your death that they are less likely to try and change the order.
Quote
Quote
You're basically saying that government should not enforce laws. That nobody should be restricted in anything they do. What's to stop someone killing off the lower class?
That's actually not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that the government should not practice slavery, and the people of a government that practices slavery should rise up to stop them. A level of restriction is needed to live in a civilization, but not that much restriction is actually necessary and is just people imposing their will upon others. I should hope that the police would prevent people from trying to kill off the lower class.
In the same way you'd expect the city watch to prevent people killing outlaws? If you don't have citizenship, you have no rights whatsoever.
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Dsarker is the trolliest Catholic
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[Dsarker is] a good for nothing troll.
You do not convince me. You rationalize your actions and because the result is favorable you become right.
"There are times, Sember, when I could believe your mother had a secret lover. Looking at you makes me wonder if it was one of my goats."

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Shit, lets be Life Quality, THE REVENGE.
« Reply #1188 on: August 10, 2011, 03:30:21 am »

Oh, there is another thing separating them: servants could usually get a different job. In Greco-Roman times, you were either a farmer, a low class criminal, a rich person, or a slave. In Rome, you also had the senator class.
Hence why a change in direction would have done Rome some good.
Quote
What human rights? Unless you are a Roman Citizen, you don't have rights. And if you do, your rights basically consist of life and being able to be tried for your crimes by the Emperor. Other than that....
So....what? I don't care what Imperial Rome thought of human rights.
Quote
You are going to change NOTHING by your death. Really. In fact, you're more likely to make people scared enough by your death that they are less likely to try and change the order.
Not if it makes me, ironically enough, a martyr.
Quote
In the same way you'd expect the city watch to prevent people killing outlaws? If you don't have citizenship, you have no rights whatsoever.
A person's rights should never be tied to their citizenship status. Rights are enumerated, not granted.

Here's what I don't think you understand: I think that Imperial Rome was bad. They were a theocratic dictatorship and a slave empire. That's immorality at its highest.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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No Gods, No Masters.

Lysabild

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Re: Shit, lets be Life Quality, THE REVENGE.
« Reply #1189 on: August 10, 2011, 03:31:51 am »

There's no such thing as rights, all we have is privileges and they will be taken from us the moment the richer class thinks it's needed.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Shit, lets be Life Quality, THE REVENGE.
« Reply #1190 on: August 10, 2011, 03:36:40 am »

There's no such thing as rights, all we have is privileges and they will be taken from us the moment the richer class thinks it's needed.
You can't buy the world, Lysabild. You can try, and you might even make some headway, but you definitely can't succeed.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Duuvian

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Re: Shit, lets be Life Quality, THE REVENGE.
« Reply #1191 on: August 10, 2011, 03:37:20 am »

Oops, I put 5 in since polls are at the top and I did that first, didn't realize there was a quiz until I paged down.

I guess I'll take the quiz and see what the internet thinks of my life and compare to what I think of my life and then start yelling at my government as needed.

EDIT:

OP quiz I got

Your Type is
INTJ
Introverted   Intuitive   Thinking   Judging
Strength of the preferences %
44   62   25   1
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 03:51:06 am by Duuvian »
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Sort of finished and awaiting remix due to loss of most recent song file before addition of drums:
https://www.box.com/s/s3oba05kh8mfi3sorjm0 <-zguit

Dsarker

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Re: Shit, lets be Life Quality, THE REVENGE.
« Reply #1192 on: August 10, 2011, 03:52:09 am »

Oh, there is another thing separating them: servants could usually get a different job. In Greco-Roman times, you were either a farmer, a low class criminal, a rich person, or a slave. In Rome, you also had the senator class.
Hence why a change in direction would have done Rome some good.
Quote
What human rights? Unless you are a Roman Citizen, you don't have rights. And if you do, your rights basically consist of life and being able to be tried for your crimes by the Emperor. Other than that....
So....what? I don't care what Imperial Rome thought of human rights.
Quote
You are going to change NOTHING by your death. Really. In fact, you're more likely to make people scared enough by your death that they are less likely to try and change the order.
Not if it makes me, ironically enough, a martyr.
Quote
In the same way you'd expect the city watch to prevent people killing outlaws? If you don't have citizenship, you have no rights whatsoever.
A person's rights should never be tied to their citizenship status. Rights are enumerated, not granted.

Here's what I don't think you understand: I think that Imperial Rome was bad. They were a theocratic dictatorship and a slave empire. That's immorality at its highest.

So you think a commentary on the time isn't altered by the time?
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[Dsarker is] a good for nothing troll.
You do not convince me. You rationalize your actions and because the result is favorable you become right.
"There are times, Sember, when I could believe your mother had a secret lover. Looking at you makes me wonder if it was one of my goats."

Angel Of Death

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Re: Shit, lets be Life Quality, THE REVENGE.
« Reply #1193 on: August 10, 2011, 03:52:30 am »

Oops, I put 5 in since polls are at the top and I did that first, didn't realize there was a quiz until I paged down.

I guess I'll take the quiz and see what the internet thinks of my life and compare to what I think of my life and then start yelling at my government as needed.

EDIT:

OP quiz I got

Your Type is
INTJ
Introverted   Intuitive   Thinking   Judging
Strength of the preferences %
44   62   25   1
Wrong quiz, dude.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Shit, lets be Life Quality, THE REVENGE.
« Reply #1194 on: August 10, 2011, 03:54:01 am »

So you think a commentary on the time isn't altered by the time?
Not really. It's a matter of degree, and the atrocities of Rome were way out of any sort of acceptable bounds, to say the least. It doesn't help that there wasn't a serious movement to change Rome into a progressive nation.
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To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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No Gods, No Masters.

Dsarker

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Re: Shit, lets be Life Quality, THE REVENGE.
« Reply #1195 on: August 10, 2011, 03:56:25 am »

It's only not progressive for our time. At their time, it would have been considered the equivalent of granting a right for homosexual marriage.
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Dsarker is the trolliest Catholic
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[Dsarker is] a good for nothing troll.
You do not convince me. You rationalize your actions and because the result is favorable you become right.
"There are times, Sember, when I could believe your mother had a secret lover. Looking at you makes me wonder if it was one of my goats."

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Shit, lets be Life Quality, THE REVENGE.
« Reply #1196 on: August 10, 2011, 04:02:12 am »

I highly doubt an oversight-less slave trade is any sort of progressive, time notwithstanding, even if there was decent treatment. That's just being pragmatic about your slave trade, as I said earlier.

In any case, what we are discussing is what I would do if suddenly thrust into Imperial Rome. Would I die? Most likely. Would I change anything? Probably not. But that doesn't matter to me. I will follow my moral code even if it drives me into an early and shallow grave.

The original issue I took with this, however, is not what I would do but what Jesus did not do when in this situation. That's part of what leads me to think he wasn't some all-powerful being of ultimate justice in human form, but just some guy who grew up in Imperial Rome. Hence, not the moral figure he is often portrayed as, which is what spurred this discussion.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Duuvian

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Re: Shit, lets be Life Quality, THE REVENGE.
« Reply #1197 on: August 10, 2011, 04:08:20 am »

I found it, also you are very correct AOD hehe. I just had to look back about three pages.

Life: 5.5
Mind: 6.7
Spirit: 7
Friends/Family 2.4
Love: 0
Finance: 2.4

EDIT: I interrupted quite the discussion didn't I? Should I voice my opinion? I think I will.

EDIT2: So I have this book called Daily Life in Ancient Rome. I always wondered why I left it sitting on my handsome red cabinet not being read by me. I suppose I will page through it and support both of your arguments that, yes, the Romans were some assholes and that Jesus was probably right in in sticking his neck out to try to change some stuff for all I know and yet he had to play by the barbaric (irony) rules of the day.

EDIT3: (From Daily Life in Ancient Rome, by Jerome Carcopino)

"Nor was this: they formed a barrier for autocracy against revolution. In the city there were 150,000 complete idlers supported by the generosity of the public assistance, and perhaps an equal number of workers who from one year's end to the other had no occupation after the hour of noon and yet were deprived of the right to devote their spare time to politics. The shows occupied the time of these people, procided a safety valve for their passions, distorted their instincts, and diverted their activity. A people that yawns is ripe for revolt. The Caesars saw to it that the Roman plebs suffered neither from hunger nor ennui. The spectacles were the great anodyne for their subjects' unemployment, and the sure instrument of their own absolutism. They shrewdly buttressed their power by surrounding the plebs with attentions and expending fabulous sums of money in the process."

More to follow in edits if no further posts are after me, or in a following post.

EDIT4: Chapter III SOCIETY AND SOCIAL CLASSES
I.ROMANS AND FOREIGNERS

At first sight Roman society appears to be divided into water-tight compartments and to bristle with barriers between class and class. All free-born men (ingenui), whether citizens of Rome or elsewhere, were in principle in a distinct category, radically seperated by their superiority of birth from the mass of slaves who were originally without rights, without guarentees, without personality, delivered over like a herd of brute beasts to the discretion of their master, and like a herd of beasts treated rather as inanimate objects than as sentient beings (res mancipi). Among the ingenui, again, there existed a profound distinction between the Roman citizen whom the law protected and the non-citizen who was merely subjected to the law. Finally the Roman citizens themselves were classified and their position on this ladder of rank determined by their fortunes.
    Whereas under the republic there had been equality for all citizens before the law, in the empire of the second and third centuries a legal distinction arose which divided the citizen body into two classes: the 'honestiores' and the 'humiliores', also called plebeii or tenuiores. To the first class belonged Roman senators and knights with their families, soldiers and veterans with thier children, and men who held or had held municipal offices in towns and cities outside of Rome, with their descendants. All other citizens belonged to the second, and unless wealth or ability brought them into public office, they remained there.
   The humiliores were subject to the most severe and humiliating punishments for infraction of the laws. They might be sent to the mines (ad metalla), thrown to the beasts in the amphitheatre, or crucified. The honestiores, on the other hand, enjoyed certain privileges. In case of grave misconduct, they were spared punishments which would tend to degrade their position in the eyes of the people and generally got off with banishment, relegation, or losing their property.
    The two highest groups among the honestiores were known as "orders" (ordines) and were composed respectivly of senators and knights. The members of the lower or Equestrian Order had to possess a minumum of 400,000 sesterces (duuvnote: equivalent to $16,000 at the time of this book's printing {I assume the footnote 2 describes how they calculated this, probably something to do with gold}) If they were honoured by the confidence of the emperor they were then qualified to be given command of his auxiliary troops or to fulfill a certain number of civil functions reserved for them; they could become domanial or fiscal procurators, or governors of secondary provinces like those of the Alps or Mauretania. After Hadrian's time they could hold various posts in the imperial cabinet, and after Augustus they were eligible for any of the praefectures except that of praefectus urbi.

Next edit continues:

   At the summit of the social scale was the Senatorial Order. A member of this order had to own at least 1,000,000 sesterces ($40,000). The emperor could at will appoint him to command his legions, to act as legate or proconsul in the most important provinces, to administer te chief services of the city, or to hold the highest posts in the priesthood. An ingenious hierarcgy gradually established barriers between the different ranks of the priveleged, and to make these demarcations more evident Harian bestowed on each variety its own exclusive title of nobility. Among the knights, "distinguished man" (vir perfectissimus) for a prefect-- unless he was a praetor, who was "most eminent" (vir eminentissimus), a title later restored by the Roman Church for the benefit of her cardinals; while the epithet "most famous" (vir carissimus) was reserved for the senator and his immediate relatives.
  This exact and rigid system, whose ingenious variouns anticipate the elaborate hierarchy devised by Peter the Great, is paralleled by Napoeon's system of graded precedence in the army and the Legion of Honour. In Rome, where officers and functionaries came and went, it established a sort of social pyramid on the summit of which, midway between earth and heaven, the princeps was poised in lonely, incomparable majesty. (duuvnote: I think he means the emperor and ruling class were conveniently remote from the common people)

   As his title indicates, the princeps was, in one sense, only the First of the Senate and of the People. In another sense, however, this primacy implied a difference not only of degree but of nature betwween himself and the rest of humanity. For the emperor, as incarnation of the law and guardian of the auspices, was closer to the gods than the ordinary human being, from whom he was seperated after his accession by his sacred character of "Augustus." He was the offspring of the the gods, and at death he would return to them after his apotheosis-- to be proclaimed divus himself in due course. In vain Trajan repudiated with scorn Domitian's claim to be addressed by the double title of "Master and God" (dominus et deus). He could not free himself from the toils of the cult which worshipped the imperial genius as represented in his person and which bound the incongrous federation of cities in East and West together in the universal empire (orbis Romanus). He had to endure hearing his decrees publicly hailed as "divine" by those whose wishes they fulfilled. (duuvnote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trajan)

Next:

    Thus Rome appears a world petrified under a theocratic aristocracy, an inflexible structure composed of innumerable seperate compartments. On closer examination we find, however, that the partitions were by no means water-tight, and that powerful equalitarian currents never ceased to circulate, continually stirring up and renewing the elements of a society whose divisions were far from isolated. Not even the imperial house was proof against these currents. When the Julian family became extinct on the death of Nero, the principate was no longer the monopoly of one predestined clan or even of the city. As Tacitus expressed it, "The secret of empire was now disclosed--- that an emperor could be made elsewhere than at Rome."
   Not the blood of Caesar or of Augustus henceforth conferrred that principate, but the loyalty of the Legions. Vespasian, legate of the East, Trajan, legate of Germany, were carried to supreme power, the former by the acclamations of his troops, the latter by the fear his army inspired and the confidence he himself inspired. Both rose to the divine imperial throne because they had first seized the pwoer which had the empire in it's gift, differing in this from Caligula, Claudius, or Nero, whose claims to empire lay in their dynasty's divinity. The legionaries who proclaimed Vespasian, the senators who compelled Nerva to adopt Trajan, the general of the Rhine frontier, had carried through a revolution. Thenceforward, just as every corporal of Napoleon's Grand Army carried a marshal's baton in his knapsack, so every army chief was felt at Rome to be a potential candidate for the imperial crown, the attainment of which was the ultimate promotion accorded to the greatest Roman warrior.
   We need, therefore, feel no surprise that at the time when this new idea of merit and advancement came to be applied to the imperial dignity it should circulate through the whole body of the empire to quicken and rejuvenate, Intercommunication was established on every side between nations and classes, bringing fresh air among them, drawing them together, fusing them. In proportion as the ius gentium, that is to say, the law applying to foreign nations, modelled itself more and more on the ius civile or law of the Roman citizen, and at the same time as philosophy taught the ius civile to take heed of the ius naturale (natural law), the distance between Roman and foreigner, between the citizen and the peregrini, was lessened. Whether by personal favour, by emancipation, or by mass naturalisations extended at one stroke either to a class of demobilised auxiliaries or to a municipality suddenly converted into an honorary colony, a new flood of peregrini acquired citizenship. Never had the cosmopolitan character of the Urbs been so distinctly marked. The Roman proper was submerged on every social plane, not only by the influx of Italian immigrants but by the multitude of provincials bringing with them froom every corner of the universe their speech, their manners, their customs, and their superstitions.
   Juvenal inveighs against this mud-laden torrent pouring from the Orontes into the Tiber. But the Syrians, whom he so greatly despised, hastened at the first possible moment to assume the guise of Roman civilians; even those who most loudly advertised their xenophobia were themselves more or less newcomvers to Rome, seeking to defend their adopted home againts fresh incursions. Juvenal himself was probaly born at Aquinum. In his house in "Pear Street" on the Quirinal, Martial sighs for Bilbilis, his little home in Aragon. Pliny the Younger, whether at Rome or in his Laurentine villa or on his estates in Tuscany, remains faithful to his Cisalpine birthplace; distant Como, which his liberality embellished, was never absent from his heart.
   In the Senate House senators from Gaul, from Spain, from Africa, from Asia, sat side by sude; the Roman emperors, Roman citizens but newly naturalized, came from towns or villages beyond the mountains and the seas. Trajan and Hadrian were born in Spanish Italica in Baetica. Their successir, Antoninus Pius, sprang from bourgeois stock in Nemausus (modern Nimes) in Gallia Narbonensis; and the end of the second century was to see the empire divided between Caesar Clodius Albinus of Hadrumetum (Tunis) and Septimius Severus of Leptis Magna (Tripoli). The biography of Septimius Severus records that even after he had ascended the throne he never succeeded in ridding his speech of the Semitic accent which he had inherited from his Punic ancestors. Thus Rome of the Antonines was a meeting place where Romans of Rome encountered those inferior peoples against whom their laws seemed to have erected solid ethnic barriers, or---to be more accurate--- Rome was a melting pot in which, despite her laws, the perople were continually being subjected to new processes of assimilation. It was, if you will, a Babel, but a Babel where, for better or for worse, all comers learned to speak and think in Latin.

2: Slavery and Manumission
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 06:00:37 am by Duuvian »
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FINISHED original composition:
https://app.box.com/s/jq526ppvri67astrc23bwvgrkxaicedj

Sort of finished and awaiting remix due to loss of most recent song file before addition of drums:
https://www.box.com/s/s3oba05kh8mfi3sorjm0 <-zguit

Dsarker

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Re: Shit, lets be Life Quality, THE REVENGE.
« Reply #1198 on: August 10, 2011, 05:45:20 am »

From what I understand, the usual means of measuring the worth of coinage is to use bread or other commodities that are common to both eras and have a known worth for both eras.

Metal, the entire gospel of Mark is all about getting rid of the Romans. It's no coincidence that he has the centurion mock Jesus at the crucifixion when he says "This was the son of a god?"
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Duuvian

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Re: Shit, lets be Life Quality, THE REVENGE.
« Reply #1199 on: August 10, 2011, 06:01:52 am »

2: Slavery and Manumission:
   Everyone learned to speak and think in Latin, even the slaves, who in the second century raised their standard of living to the level of the ingenui. Legislation had grown more and more human and had progressively lightened their chains and favoured their emancipation. The practical good sense of the Romans, no less than the fundamental humanity instinctive in their peasant hearts, had always kept them from showing cruelty toward the servi. (duuvnote: lol) They had always treated their slaves with consideration, as Cato had treated his plow oxen; however far back we go in history we find the Romans spurring their slaves to effort by offering them pay and bonuses which accumulated to form a nest egg that as a rule served ultimately to buy their freedom. (duuvnote: that sounds sufficiently like social security to be scary, although I bet coins are harder to keep safe as a roman slave than modern times) With few exceptions, slavery in Rome was neither eternal nor, while it lasted, intolerable; but never had it been lighter or easier to escape from than under the Antonines.
   From the first century of the republic it had been recognized that the slave had a soul of his own, and the free citizens had, in practice, permitted him to join them in the service of whatever cul he preferred. At Minturnae, for instance, as early ast 70 B.C., the sanctuary of Spes, the Goddess of Hope, had been served by as many slave magistri as by free and freed magistri put together. Later, as culture grew spiritually richer and the influence of philanthropic philosophies increased, slaves gathered in ever greater numbers round the altars of the gods. In the first century of our era epitaphs began openly to pay honour to the manes of dead slaves, and in the second century the mystic funeral collegia, such as that founded in Lanuvium in 133 under the double invocation of Diana and Antinous, brought ingenui, freedmen, and slaves together in brotherly communion. In this particular case the slaves engaged, if they later gained their freedom, to regale their fellow members with an amphora of wine on the day of their liberation. The laws naturally kept pace with the progress of ideas. At the beginning of the empire a certain Lex Petronia had forbidden a master deliver his slave to the beasts of the amphitheatre without a judgement authorising him to do so. Toward the middle of the first century an edict of Claudius decreed that sick or infirm slaves whom their master had abandoned should be manumitted; and a short time afterwards an edict possibly drawn up by Nero under the inspiration of Seneca, who had vigorously championed the human rights of the slave, charged the praefectus urbi to receive and investigate complaints laid before him by slaves concerning the injustice of their masters. In 83 under Domitian a senatus-consultum forbade a master to castrate his slaves, and fixed as the penalty for infringement of this decreee the confiscation of half the offender's property. In the second century Hadrian had to double the penalty for this offence, which he declared a "capital crime," and he dictated to the Senate two decrees inspired by the same humanity: the first prevented masters from selling their slaves to either the leno or the lanista; that is, either to the procurer or the trainer of glaidators; the second compelled a master who had condemned his slave to death to submit the sentence for the approval of a praefectus vigilum before carrying it into execution. This humanitarian evolution culminated in the middle of the century when Antoninus Pius condemned as homicide any slaying of a slave by the sole order of his master.
   Altogether, at this time Roman legislation reflects rather than imposes the humanitarian attitude which manners and customs had adopted. Juvenal castigates with the lash of his satire the miser who "pinches the bellies of his slaves"; the gambler who throws away a fortune on the throw of the dice and "Has no shir to give a shivering slave"; the coquette who loses her temper, storms and takes out her ill humour on the unoffending backs of her maids. The poets indignation is but the echo of public opinion, which abhorred no less than he the abominable cruelties of that Rutilus whom Juvenal withered with his scorn. In his day most masters, if they did not entirely abstain from corporal punishment of their slaves, at most visited their faults with rods such as Martial, without compunction, laid on his cook for a spoiled dinner. This did not prevent the master from caring for his slave and loving him even to the point of weeping for his death.
   In the great houses where many of the slaves were able specialists and some, like the tutor, the doctor, and the reader, and enjoyed a liberal education, they were treated exactly like free men. Pliny the Younger desires his cousin Paternus to choose slaves for him in the market with discernment. He watches with anxiety over their health, going so far as to shoulder the expense of long and costly trips to Egypt or to Frejus in the Provencal plain. He allows them to make wills, though the property must remain within the household, and honors them as if legally binding. He relied with confidence more on their devotion than on his severity to stimulate their zeal when some relation turned up in his house, sure that they would endeavour to please their master by their attentions to his guest. The same kindly attitude prevailed among Pliny's friends; they felt their slaves to be almost part of the family. When the old senator, Corellius Rufus, was ill in bed, he liked to have his favorite slaves with him in the room, and when he had to send them out in order to talk privately, his wife withdrew with them. Pliny the Younger went even further, and did not disdain to discuss important matters with his slaves; when he was in thecountry he would invite the better educated among them to join with him in those learned discussions which at evening brighted his after dinner walks.
   The slaves on their side were full of consideration for masters such as these. Pliny the Younger was stupefied by the news of the attack made on the senator Larcius Macedo by a party of his household slaves. His amazement is an index of the rarity of such a crime. And the care--- unfortunately useless--- lavished on the victim by those of his slaves who had remained faithful proves tgat even in houses where they were the mose severely handled, slaves could feel that their masters treated them like men. Indeed, a Greek who lived at Rome in the middle of the second century was struck by the leveling which had taken place between slaves and freemen, which to his amazement extended even to their clothes. Appian of Alexandria, writing under Antoninus Pius, remarks that even in externals the save is in no way distinguished from his master, and unless his master donned the toga praetexta of the magistrate, the two were dressed alike. Appian supplements this by recording a thing which astonished him even more: after a slave had regained his liberty he lived on terms of absolute equality with the Roman citizen.
   Rome, alone of all cities of antiquity, has the honour of having redeemed her outcasts by opening her doors to them. It is true that the freed slave remained bound to his former master, now his patronus, sometimes by services due or by pecuniary indebtedness. and always by the duties implied by an almost filial respect (obsequium). But once his emancipation or manumissio had been duly pronounced, whether by a fictitious statement of claim before the praetor (per vindictam) or by the inscription of his name one the censor's register (censu) at the solemn sacrifice of the lustrum, or more commonly in virtue of a testamentary clause (testamento), the slave obtained by the grace of his master, living or dead, the name and status of a Roman citizen. His descendants of the third generation were entitled to exercise the full political rights of citizenship and nothing further distinguished them from ingenui. In the course of time the formalities of manumission were relaxed, and custom, superceding law, substituted simpler and spedier methods of procedure for the manumission rites: a mere letter from the patron or a verbal declaration made, for instance, in the course of some festivity where the guests were requested to serve as witnesses. The caprice of fashion began to take a hand, and it seemed as if some masters took a pride in multiplying the number of manumitted slaves round them. This practice became so fashionable that Augustus, alarmed by such prodigality, made efforts to set some limit to it's indulgence. He fixed eighteen as the minimum age at which a master could exercise the right to free a slave, and thirty as the minimum age at which a slave could be manumitted. As regarded testamentary manumission, which was by far the most frequent form of legal emancipation, he laid down the rule that according to circumstances the number of slaves set free should bear a certain ratio to the total number of slaves possessed by the deceased master, and should not in any case exceed a maximum of a hundred.
   He devised an inferior category of semicitizens, who were known as Latini Iuniani, to whom was granted the partial naturalization of the Ius Latii, which, however, debarred the holder from making or benefitting from a will. All slaves whom their masters had manumitted in violation of the imperial decress or in any irregular fashion outside the formal legal procedure were flung pell-mell into the category of Latini Iuniani. But custon was stronger than the emperor's will and nullified his legislation. In an effort to counteract the falling birth rate, he released all Latini Iuniani who were fathers of families from the inferiority of second class citizenship to which he had himself condemned them. Then Tiberius granted the same relaxation to former vigiles in order to stimulate enrolment in his cohorts; later , Claudius extended full rights to liberti of both sexes who employed their capital outfitting merchant ships, Nero to those who invested it in building, and Trajan to those who used their money to set up bakeries.
   Ultimately all the emperors, out of love for their own freed slaves or those of their friends, took pains to obliderate the last trace of their servile origin, either by utilising the legal fiction of the natalium restitutio or by slipping onto their finger the gold ring which might open the way to the equestrian status. Hence in the period we are studying, the slaves who benefited by the ever-increasing numbers of manumissions were placed on a footing of complete equality with other Roman citizens, enabled to secure positions and fortunes and to purchase droves of slaves in their turn, as we see Trimalchio doing.
   An epigraphist walking through the ruins of ancient Rome receives the impression that slaves and freedmen predominated in the life of the imperial epoch, for three out of four they alone are mentioned in the inscriptions which are still to be read on the walls. In an article remarkable for the quantity and accuracy of it's statistics, Tenney Frank points out that since in the majority of cases the form of a slave name betrays its owner's Graeco-oriental origin, iti is easily proved that at least 80 per cent of the population of Imperial Rome had been emanicpated from more or less ancient servitude. At first sight the observer is filled with admiration for the strength which this constant rise seems to imply, both in a society which can unceasingly assimilate new elements and in an empire which can extend to the farthese horizon the area from which it draws new elements; and he is tempted to attribute to the Rome of the Antonines the free play and the deserved advantages of a perfect democracy.

3: THE CONFUSION OF SOCIAL VALUES (aka the less wonderful aspects of Roman slavery)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 07:11:29 am by Duuvian »
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Sort of finished and awaiting remix due to loss of most recent song file before addition of drums:
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