Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4

Author Topic: The Economy  (Read 12273 times)

Unfrozen Caveman

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Economy
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2011, 09:33:59 pm »

Oh, I get all that.  My point was that your suggestions are mostly for late game, and that people who read them don't always get that.
Logged

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: The Economy
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2011, 10:21:13 pm »

Forsaken1111, Granite 26, I kind of spun-off another discussion into a full thread, and this one about coins being stackable got sucked up into it.  See here.
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

Lungfish

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Economy
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2011, 07:47:35 am »

I'd be fine if each minting within the same year used the same image. In fact it would be really nice if we could choose that image.

Or maybe even just the image of the highest ranking dwarf in the year it was minted. Republican Rome had a committee of "young statesmen aspiring to become senators" (wikipedia, Roman Currency) that would chose the image to use, depicting dieties or glorifying their ancestors. There's a fun excuse for extra Administrators.

On a totally different note, though still related to economics and trade (and the reason I'm on the forum at all today); It would be cool if severely damaged goods and furniture detracted from the combined value of goods marked to be traded instead of adding to it. In Sim City, I liked that I could pay a neighboring city to cart away my trash instead of dealing with it myself, and it would be preferable to pathing all the way from my hoard to my lowest z level to dump the crap into magma (won't I anger the Magma Men?) or bottomless pits (I don't like that they exist).
If garbage is going to have a positive value, then my trash must be someone els's treasure for a reason. Maybe tailors could use the clothier shop to repair clothing? Maybe stonecrafters could take bits of broken furniture and make trinkets? Or maybe, as has been elsewhere suggested, a significant enough amount of crap could be burned to make ash or coal at an incinerator? Otherwise, the stuff should not have a positive value and should probably have a negative value, at least in Trade.
Logged

forsaken1111

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • TTB Twitch
Re: The Economy
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2011, 07:31:04 pm »

I'd be fine if each minting within the same year used the same image. In fact it would be really nice if we could choose that image.

Or maybe even just the image of the highest ranking dwarf in the year it was minted. Republican Rome had a committee of "young statesmen aspiring to become senators" (wikipedia, Roman Currency) that would chose the image to use, depicting dieties or glorifying their ancestors. There's a fun excuse for extra Administrators.
I'd really rather we be able to choose, with that as one of the choices.

Or have the highest ranking civilian dwarf's face on one side and a chosen image on the other.
Logged

Lungfish

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Economy
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2011, 11:58:28 pm »

Forsaken1111 is right. So then it's agreed. This thread can be closed now.
Logged

forsaken1111

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • TTB Twitch
Re: The Economy
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2011, 05:31:27 pm »

Forsaken1111 is right. So then it's agreed. This thread can be closed now.
^.^ I was just stating my preference for an open player-controlled system rather than one which automatically stamped someone's face on the coin.
Logged

Lungfish

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Economy
« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2011, 09:39:45 pm »

Yeah, I was posting while stupid tired. I should have just said, "I totally agree with you." The option to choose your minting style would be cool if it was a setting you could toggle from the tax collector in the nobles section or something
Logged

catoblepas

  • Bay Watcher
  • Likes catoblepi for their haunting moos
    • View Profile
Re: The Economy
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2011, 06:32:42 pm »



Right now, a dwarf has no greater claim to the objects he makes then the dwarf who's sole job is to haul stone. I think that perhaps any objects a dwarf makes should automatically belong to him, but taxes would have to be paid at the end of each month where every dwarf would have to pay X% of the money they earned back to the state (player). This could be paid in coins, goods, or in services rendered (pulling levers, bookkeeping, etc, which would count as x dwarf bucks off of whatever they owed) services would be deducted first, then goods, then coins. If the dwarves still don't have enough left over (perhaps by having a high immoderate stat) they could be evicted, or their goods confiscated. Humble dwarves might be inclined to sell more of their higher quality items, while immodest dwarves would want to show off their expensive items. Altruistic dwarves might even donate excess goods. Dwarves will buy commodities and food/drink from other dwarves or the state, but they can only buy items from the state that are marked as 'sell to dwarves'. Items owned by the state would be marked 'sell to dwarves' in a similar way to how we can mark items as forbidden on death. Items owned by dwarves would have an option when viewing thm something like 'B-Buy for 128 dwarfbucks' if you do this, the items is owned by the state, and the dwarf can go off to collect 128 dwarfbucks worth of coins from the state. When trading with caravans, goods would be selected and delivered to the Depot as usual, but only items owned by the state can be traded, perhaps there should be a letter toggle for allowing dwarves to trade with the caravan, however, this should only be toggled after the player is done trading. items the dwarves sell will still be counted towards good exported. Goods that they buy will not go to the player, but perhaps players will have the ability to tax transactions made by the dwarves.
Logged

counting

  • Bay Watcher
  • Zenist
    • View Profile
    • Crazy Zenist Hospital
Re: The Economy
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2011, 08:32:19 pm »

There is a file tracking every single decoration, engraving, contaminant and sewn image for all items in the game world too. I don't see how coins are super more harder, especially if it just pointed to their minting year for the image rather than tracking that specific coin.

You pay the price cumulatively for each of those.  Engravings need to be tracked, or else they wouldn't exist at all - the decoration is their entire existence.  There's also not all that many engraved tiles outside of your fortresses, and they don't get shipped to your fort all that often, either.  Coins could still exist without an image on them.  And again, we still have dozens of other things that still do, and don't have the serious drawbacks associated with putting these things on coins.

In fact, if we absolutely have to keep the detail, it would be nice if every single "minting" of coins would just keep using the same image as the minting before it, up until the year change at most.  Having every single stack of coins in a year have a different set of images on it is kooky.  Then, they could at least have several thousand coins all pointing to the same image and year.
While reading through all these discussions about economics and the currency, I must say that I admire so many people are interested in generating an "workable" economics system from scratch.

And I agree that (and like Kohaku said), economics is a complex system depending on many other factors, and can not be discussed alone. Still, about the history of coins, I'd say that there is a reason behind why using the image of kings on them, and it's NOT crazy at all.

First of all, currency, weather it's fiat or commodity money, besides its obvious property - medium of exchange, store of value, and a unit of count. (Basics of Monetary Economics) There are more reason behind why currency should exist and can exist - it represents credibility and debts (this concept has a name - standard of deferred payment). So the image of king/queen engraved on the coinage represents his/her credibility/authority in the place where the currency been used. Also, if you are the king/queen, the coinage is NOT your asset at all, but rather it represents your debts to your people.

In one of the previous post, someone talked about how current dwarf buck being a "perfect currency". In reality it's more of a concept of "public good". Simply put, perfect currency should be worthless by itself (true value = 0), but has infinite ability to add as many 0's on it (face value = any number). And it can be shared to everyone without compromising its usability. So why coins are invented in the first place can be answered.

Since, gold, silver or more often the alloy of both, are essentially worthless in it's "true value" using as metal (they are too heavy and too soft at the same time), but the face value of these metals are flexible because they are used as luxuries. And contrary to general believes, they are not actually "rare". but rather their easy accessibility and their easy remolding make them good candidate as currency.

These facts bring us back to the topic about the nature of coinage being the representation of credibility and debts of the king/queen. Coins emerged at the same time as big empires in middle-east emerged. Coins (or round shiny medal) might be first used as tokens for gods or symbols for individuality (not necessary to nobleman only). And this tradition continued been used for thousands of years before coins are assigned to their new roles.

Than, an economic system transits itself from commodity money using usable goods like grains or animals, and becomes a centralized economy needed in a vest empire, the simple way of who produced the most commodities is the richest person doesn't work that well anymore. The serfs may know their local lords, but hardly know their emperor. And when the emperor demands his/her taxes been collected through the middle man - local lords, the serfs still only paid their lords, but part of the taxes are now belong to the higher above emperor. In a sense, the original full take of taxes (loots from the poor serfs) are been shared between the lords and central government. So in order to accommodate the "shrinking fair take", the emperor distributed his/her personal "medal" to the local lords, with "face values" which equals to the taxes given to the central government. In modern term, the emperor is now in debt to the lords, and it's guaranteed by the credibility/authority of the emperor himself. (backup by force most of the time)

Must remember that, these medals maybe very few at the beginning (as archaeology indicates), and over time, only the current emperor can hold these medals of their credibility. So a new emperor needs a new face on the medals, and often the face value varies with each other (they are not yet interchangeable). And local lords can claim these debts from the emperor when needed (during bad seasons etc.) But when an empire expanded into varies regions using varies commodity money, so does the need for mass production medals. Medals need to be standardized for convenience and also for easy distributions. And it's not surprised that early currency often equal to a certain weight of goods, and often the goods that used in varies regions as the local commodity money. And from here the emperor can simply define a certain exchange rate of taxes commodity goods with his personal medal. And local lords soon realized they can not only claim their debts from the emperor, but exchange commodity goods they don't have using these standardized medals with their neighboring lords. The coinage were born. And early on, they are limiting in large quantity exchanges used by nobleman or long distance merchandises only. The local economy was often still limited in using commodity money.

P.S The easy production of coins also create the first inflation and counterfeit. The credibility is done by the image engraved, so when the usage of coins spread into general population (at least part of it), the right of manufacturing coins is often a privilege and entrust only to the central government for a reason. (counterfeiting are punished by death) Still, when the general demands for more currency, the quickest way is to remold these coins into more medals but with less weight individually without changing its face value. But this sometimes creates inflation (not always), hence the "real face value" was often much less. For this reason, there is the need for engraving the year when the coin being produced. A coin produced a decade ago with the same face value as today may not have the same "real face value" in the current market.
Logged
Currency is not excessive, but a necessity.
The stark assumption:
Individuals trade with each other only through the intermediation of specialist traders called: shops.
Nelson and Winter:
The challenge to an evolutionary formation is this: it must provide an analysis that at least comes close to matching the power of the neoclassical theory to predict and illuminate the macro-economic patterns of growth

Cespinarve

  • Bay Watcher
  • Lege lege lege relege labora et invenies
    • View Profile
Re: The Economy
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2011, 02:15:07 pm »

Basically, I want to have my Fortress be like Hungary after WWII, I want inflation so bad that prices double every 13 hours or so.
Logged
Nice one, not sure when I'll be feeling like killing a baby but these things are good to know.
This is why we can't have nice things... someone will just wind up filling it with corpses.
Arrakis teaches the attitude of the knife — chopping off what's incomplete and saying: "Now it's complete because it's ended here."

counting

  • Bay Watcher
  • Zenist
    • View Profile
    • Crazy Zenist Hospital
Re: The Economy
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2011, 10:36:54 pm »

Basically, I want to have my Fortress be like Hungary after WWII, I want inflation so bad that prices double every 13 hours or so.

You do understand that when inflation happens, you are not getting any more richer, but just get more "medals" on the price tag? the amount of commodities producing isn't going to change, the only change is the ratio between commodities and currency.

And by nature, when a central government issuing "currency" (like the medals I mentioned above), it's in fact actively creating "inflation". (the proper tern is money creation or credit creation). since the debts itself is just a promise of return (mostly with interests in the future).

People who accept the "currency", is in fact excepting they "lend" the commodities at hand to the government, and receive a "note" (as modern fiat money) or medals (as coins) so they can have the illusions that they still own the same amount of wealth at hands (the part which lend for the government + the commodities they need for themselves). But on the other hands the government gain purely the part of commodities people gave them (through taxes, or "government expense"), with minimum cost and some empty future promises. That's what I called the base of money is debts and credibility.

Notice that on the above, since the government's debts equal to the currency they issued, and the amount it collects from the people. So the combine wealth of the government and the people, is ( the collection of commodities of the government + the currency on people's hands + the commodities people need for themselves) it is = (2x times the amount of governments debts + the commodities people need for themselves). If people gives half they possessions to the government, the total wealth will be 1.5 times than the original people's wealth.

You see, we create wealth out of thin air (actually with the cost of printing notes). and this process can be repeated until people can't only barely feed themselves with the goods they have at hands. And the rest of the goods governments taken away were used to do something else. (Like funding a war, or transfer to offshore accounts.) That's what mostly happened after a great war. Governments keep taking away productions, left only "money" on the hands of people, and an "inflation" or super inflation is created. (Super inflation is when the barely living condition is reached, and governments keep printing "money", and people stop "lending" out goods on the market, so the ratio of money vs circulating goods reaches absurdity)
Logged
Currency is not excessive, but a necessity.
The stark assumption:
Individuals trade with each other only through the intermediation of specialist traders called: shops.
Nelson and Winter:
The challenge to an evolutionary formation is this: it must provide an analysis that at least comes close to matching the power of the neoclassical theory to predict and illuminate the macro-economic patterns of growth

Blade Master Model 42

  • Bay Watcher
  • Edelgard did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
Re: The Economy
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2011, 07:24:18 am »

Basically, I want to have my Fortress be like Hungary after WWII, I want inflation so bad that prices double every 13 hours or so.

You do understand that when inflation happens, you are not getting any more richer, but just get more "medals" on the price tag? the amount of commodities producing isn't going to change, the only change is the ratio between commodities and currency.

I think Cespinarve is just dickin' with ya buddy.

counting

  • Bay Watcher
  • Zenist
    • View Profile
    • Crazy Zenist Hospital
Re: The Economy
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2011, 08:09:29 am »

Basically, I want to have my Fortress be like Hungary after WWII, I want inflation so bad that prices double every 13 hours or so.

You do understand that when inflation happens, you are not getting any more richer, but just get more "medals" on the price tag? the amount of commodities producing isn't going to change, the only change is the ratio between commodities and currency.

I think Cespinarve is just dickin' with ya buddy.

But it serves a purpose for me to explain some of the concepts behind currency and money creation. And there are more to it. And the real economic system will create more than 1.5 times of wealth out of thin air. But to a point of factor of 10 or more. Only if the people trust the fiat money. (Although I doubt many understand that it is, and what's their differences.) And I believed that's why setting the metal and the coins they produced having a similar factor in values as well. But in history, it's not possible to be so static, and are determined by the emperor's wishes from time to time. (If the government is powerful enough, you have no choice to accept these fiat money, and some of the most powerful empire in history, like the Mongolian Empire, rely on them and are in fact very successful.)
Logged
Currency is not excessive, but a necessity.
The stark assumption:
Individuals trade with each other only through the intermediation of specialist traders called: shops.
Nelson and Winter:
The challenge to an evolutionary formation is this: it must provide an analysis that at least comes close to matching the power of the neoclassical theory to predict and illuminate the macro-economic patterns of growth

UristMcHuman

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Economy
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2011, 01:54:26 pm »

Theres X stages of participation in the suggestions forum.

Stage 1:  Suggest Gunpowder
[/quote]

Gunpowder's already been suggested multiple times, I've even written a thread or two about how I think it should work.
Logged

ajar

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Economy
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2015, 06:57:33 am »

What to do with our gold?

Mansa Musa :)
Logged
And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened. Jesus-
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4