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Author Topic: More weapons  (Read 6537 times)

SirHoneyBadger

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Re: More weapons
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2011, 04:32:31 am »

Whatever my views are, and whatever the reaction to them, in the end it's just a mod.
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Neonivek

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Re: More weapons
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2011, 04:33:33 am »

Unfortunately this is the "More weapons" page and not the "Make the goblins make SOME sense" thread (that I'd put the Elf "Somehow there are thousands of us and we can still feed ourselves without farms or any discernable food source")

Though I am halfway convinced there should be less Lashers.

What would a really tiny race use as weapons anyhow to compete against their larger cousins? They can't rely entirely on trolls.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: More weapons
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2011, 05:32:47 am »

Size has disadvantages, as well as advantages. Human weapons of the same basic form came in a variety of weights, and smiths would regularly resize swords, the way rings are resized today. A small but very strong human could wield a zweihander that was fitted to his strength, and for the same reasons a huge human would wield a zweihander--and the huge man might be at a disadvantage, since his bulk may make such a large weapon slower and more easily avoided, while offering a larger, unshielded target.

Strength, skill, and the purpose the weapon was being put to, were atleast as important as the size of the fighter using it.

A very small being might favor an axe, for the same reasons a woodsman uses an axe to fell a tree--quick blows, smoothness of operation, and deep penetration into even bone. Picks and the like offer even deeper penetration, at the risk of losing your weapon to the wound--and against a single titanic foe, a deep wound to a vulnerable area may be worth a dozen scratches. Spears, as well, make sense against large warriors, for the same reasons they make sense against large prey--again offering penetration, as well as reach and accuracy.

Swords work well for those of similar size, where size isn't the deciding factor, and where many blows may be traded before one or the other opponent is laid low.

Giants and ogres, on the other hand, might favor broad maces or flails, as even a glancing blow can crush a small, fast, hard to target being, and where penetrating power is a disadvantage, instead of an advantage. An uprooted thorn tree seems like a crude weapon, but that doesn't make it ineffective. Swords and axes aren't that valuable against very tiny foes, and could be replaced with cheaper and/or more effective weaponry. A trident would work far better than a spear, for a giant, offering all of the advantages, and few disadvantages.

A giant would rarely ever seek to throw a weapon, other than a rock or a stick--well made gigantic weapons being exponentially more expensive, and more than exponentially difficult to make. Bronze would probably be favored over iron, and even steel. The added weight and hardness won't mean much, and the corrosion resistance would be invaluable. Bows would be ridiculous in the hands of giants, except against ships, where a single arrow might sink a galleon.

Simple discuses, on the other hand, could break masts, smash walls and towers, and be used to slaughter whole phalanx at a time, from both short and long range. Far more effective in the hands of a gigantic being, than in a normal human.
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Neonivek

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Re: More weapons
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2011, 06:03:02 am »

I'd also imagine specific slashing weapons made to hack at a victum's heel to be somewhat popular.

Quote
since his bulk may make such a large weapon slower and more easily avoided

Unless he does a shoulder swing. A lot of REALLY heavy weapons were swung by the body and not the arms.

Though Goblins are more then small, they are very small (though I think Toady recently rewritten them to be as large as dwarves)
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Erkki

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Re: More weapons
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2011, 07:48:44 am »

Just working formations(for all factions) and adding in weapon reach would start making difference. As a surrounded creature already suffers heavily, formations(and an order to break them) would help keeping losses low in most situations and add some depth to combat. The weapon reach... This could be just something as simple as the further-reaching weapon to get the first strike, or better change to get the first strike.

An idea admittedly stolen from 2 first Total Wars, dwarves behind the first line, when the formation is not moving, could add a "cohesion bonus" in helping at least the defensive odds of the first line, provided they are in their positions and not moving. Though I doubt the DF could currently do that. Or to give those poor Goblins some chances, give them pavises or even mantlets! Hope when or once the siege engines and siegers' digging comes.
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Granite26

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Re: More weapons
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2011, 07:52:51 am »

Nice post sirhoneybadger

SirHoneyBadger

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Re: More weapons
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2011, 03:34:50 pm »

Thank you.
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Nopkar

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Re: More weapons
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2011, 04:04:11 pm »

Quite epic debate back thar O.o

Here's my two cents real quick on the Goblin matter. Evil equivalent to a dwarf (with regards to arm/armor crafting. what need to they have of trinkets?). Simple and effective. What's so hard to believe that if they can survive all those hundreds of years with war's and famine and what not that by the time you fight them in a siege, they kinda know how to manufacture arms/armor? Not with exceptional skill, but enough to make them effective en-masse, which just so happens they do.

About the Mo-Weapons. (axe point of view, just for an example.)

A Bearded Axe is different from a Battle Axe is different from a Dane axe is different from a Hand Axe is different from...on down the line 10 more times and you get the idea.

Now, for simplicity sake, 2 categories, light and heavy. Axes like the Bearded and Hand Axes are in the light category. They've got the same stat's (or if you'd like, make them all different! but i'm just going for why you'd have all of those options). The heavy would be the Dane and Battle Axes. Ditto.

What you end up with is a list of 12 or more different kinds of axes, broken almost evenly between light and heavy. ones with shields and ones without. now then, if the player doesn't know what a particular kind of axe is, google it! instantly you get an image of what that axe is and whether or not you think it's cool enough to outfit your militia with.

Simple as that. One's not particularly better than the other, it's about looks at this point. I don't care if there's a list of 1000+ weapons. All that mean's is that I can simulate a real armory now and make my army look how I want.




If you think it's pointless, why say so? You obviously wouldn't have need of this mod, why waste your breath telling the people who want it that it's stupid? It makes the game fun for us, go find something that makes the game fun for you
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: More weapons
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2011, 08:25:52 pm »

Variety here, I feel, is important. Not just for it's own sake--All of the weapons I listed are different from one another, in some way, other than just name, to the point where I plan to mod each one with different tag information--but because of the nifty new uniform system. It would be nice to be able to create squads armed with their own unique, evocative weaponry, and also to occasionally produce really distinctive artifacts.

It also doesn't hurt my sense of immersion, to see real world names of actual weapons appearing, as opposed to "light axe", "heavy axe". People didn't call their weapons such generic names, and it feels fake and out of place to see such appearing in such a detailed game.

It does increase the learning-curve, a little bit, but I feel the benefits outweight that.
 
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Nopkar

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Re: More weapons
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2011, 10:59:46 pm »

Variety here, I feel, is important. Not just for it's own sake--All of the weapons I listed are different from one another, in some way, other than just name, to the point where I plan to mod each one with different tag information--but because of the nifty new uniform system. It would be nice to be able to create squads armed with their own unique, evocative weaponry, and also to occasionally produce really distinctive artifacts.

It also doesn't hurt my sense of immersion, to see real world names of actual weapons appearing, as opposed to "light axe", "heavy axe". People didn't call their weapons such generic names, and it feels fake and out of place to see such appearing in such a detailed game.

It does increase the learning-curve, a little bit, but I feel the benefits outweight that.

Let me know when this mod of yours comes out. It's pretty much what I've been looking for. I tried my hand at tweaking and adding weapons and armor but I always seem to break my DF.

I know the "light axe" "heavy axe" was a little murky but I didn't think anyone would go through the trouble to model each and every weapon specifically and have uniqueness/realism in mind.

And I agree whole-heartedly about immersion. "shield" ticks me off to no end...along with "helmet". Those two are my biggest pet peeve...Where's my "Steel Greathelm" or "Iron Barbut"... and don't get me started on those farking shields >.>
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Max White

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Re: More weapons
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2011, 11:21:32 pm »

Funny, I am slowly constructing a mod with both greathelms and barbuts. It might be out by the time toady makes the next big raws overhaul...

SirHoneyBadger

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Re: More weapons
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2011, 11:29:02 pm »

Well, I've got help making the mod, and I'm making good progress so far, so I'm hoping to be able to see it all the way through.

I don't have any plans to get into armour at this time...I keep hoping that ToadyOne will at some point make more armour and clothing areas than we currently have, so that we could model in more pieces.

Weapons are just a small part of the mod, though. Right now my main focus is just getting something out and working, but there's a lot I'd like to do with DF and modding.
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Dynastia

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Re: More weapons
« Reply #57 on: March 01, 2011, 12:00:13 am »

A reworked wood, bone, stone and leather arsenal would be a great place to start. There's something stupidly annoying about elves wielding wooden whips (well, there's something stupidly annoying about elves no matter what, but wooden whips only compound it).

I think that new metal weapons would be nice and all, but the place fortress-mode weapons are truly lacking is in early-game non-metal weapons. It sure would be nice to be able to sharpen a few sticks or assemble some wooden flails before you get your forges up and running.
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Granite26

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Re: More weapons
« Reply #58 on: March 01, 2011, 12:03:28 am »

they're called 'switches'

Dynastia

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Re: More weapons
« Reply #59 on: March 01, 2011, 12:10:27 am »

And wooden scourges?
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