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[IT 000]

I am all for a little bit of variety in weapons. I've modded in several weapons myself, usually European, giving Norse/Germanic weapons to the dwarves, English/french weapons to the humans, elves usually tag along for the sake of the game. Goblins usually get the misc weapons, things like giant cleavers or spiked clubs.

I do not believe that dwarves should be able to make all weapons. Having the humans be able to bring long swords is a big reason why I'm trading partners with them. With the ability to make home grown weapons, what's the point of keeping the humans?

Dwarves should have a lot more variety, it would be nice to see a dwarf only weapon floating around, and a little voice in my head is pointing out the joke in dwarves are only able to create a 'short' sword.

[Granite26]

Comparative advantage?

[SirHoneyBadger]

I'm in favor of the theory that goblins are actually pretty intelligent and advanced, in DF:

The Facts:

They've got a culture able to draw from (by way of regular, and successful child kidnapping--proof enough that they're capable of subtle tactics), and then incorporate, a variety of different species, of various levels of intelligence and technical aptitude (both trolls, and dwarfs).

They are capable of both advanced tool-making, and sustained seiges, and the skills and logistics to allow both.

They are additionally able to keep all of their peoples both fed, and united, over a long period of time, and even to fight major, sustainable wars of severe hostility and attrition, on not one but atleast three separate fronts, even while offering reason enough for even peace-loving cultures to consider extreme measures to destroy them (They kidnap, and apparently thoroughly brainwash, children into apparent slave-soldiers, and then turn those children against their own families, to make war on them. That would be an extremely evil and threatening series of crimes in almost any human system of morality in existence, modern or historical.).

None of those proven abilities are less than remarkable, and taken as a whole, they infer an extremely advanced, sophisticated, and stable culture, that may infact be far more enlightened (if admittedly far, far less than what we would consider to be "morally correct") than any of the so-called "good" or "lawful" species, if simply taken at face value).

Frankly, these kidnappings by goblins might infact just be an act of mercy on their part...Alien to our own ways of thinking, ofcourse, but then they're goblins, not humans.

The very fact that dwarfs aren't escaping and returning to our Fortresses is, without further facts, not a little convincing that whatever they're teaching those kids must make some sort of sense (After all, the goblins are taking them away from the same psychotic, suicidal, tantrum-spiral-prone alchoholics who murder their pet kittens for lunch,  and made really nice furniture out of the babysitter, just last week...Straw goblin has a point, mebbe??).

Therefore, I don't see any reason at all to deny goblins advanced weaponry, or to make the types of weapons they do have, of the "big/crude/dumb" variety. I chose that they should have Middle Eastern and etc. weapons, because of the historical wars between Persia and Rome*  and the advanced learning and technologies that came out of Persian and Indian-held lands, from Classical times through the Middle Ages.

Considering medieval Western values, and the villification of goblins in game, the comparisons should not be too obscure for many to accept, without falling too far away from fantasy (considering that the Iron Age Vikings--the source of the dwarf in mythology--and the Arabs didn't seem to have that much against one another, outside of limited trade, purely mercenary action under the auspices of the Byzantine Empire, and maybe the occasional isolated raid), and too far into historical prejudices.

*As a footnote: Stories of Romans, brought back to Norse lands with the Vikings returning from raids on a previously-Roman-held England, an England still dotted with advanced, clearly alien Roman ruins, graves, and artifacts;  which then became mixed up with Celtic tales of brownies and faerie folk, were in my opinion, a large influence on the mythological dwarf.

[IT 000]

Very fascinating view there SirHoneyBadger, and I agree with you. Good luck on your mod!

I plan to get rid of humans in the game (Honestly, they don't really add a lot to an environment already extremely rich in sentients. Animal men can take up most of the human "slack", and do so in a far more evocative fashion.)

Perhaps you could have different human entities, and each one would have a different culture and weapons from the real world. That would add a lot of flavor to the game rather then just another generic human showing up.

[Neonivek]

Goblins have a lot of infighting and are rather disorganised unless held together by a powerful leader.

Luckly their society generally acts as a very strict "Only the strong survive" as the weaker goblins are killed off.

Though personally a lot of their structures only make sense in light of certain spoiler material and maybe Toady should go back and reconsider the current Goblin culture and technology level given that they no longer have access to the spoiler material.

Perhaps you could have different human entities

Naw his problem is mostly what I call "Hates vanilla". It is quite common for vanilla to be disliked for being... well... vanilla.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Goblins have a lot of infighting and are rather disorganised unless held together by a powerful leader.

That may be true in the short term, but if you look at their society as a whole, the idea that goblin civilization only exists on a "strong leader/expansion and plunder" basis, and would otherwise fall apart, that doesn't really hold up.

In any case, lots of human cultures have done well under the guidance of a powerful leader, and were spurred to expand by that leader's direction and ability. That doesn't mean those civilizations fell apart once that leader died. One proof of a superior civilization is in it's ability to simply last, where others fall, even as it's leaders come and go.

Since goblins, however warlike they may be, haven't managed to subjugate or exterminate the other sentients--and clearly, they seem to be trying, unless war is simply their idea of recreation, which is a distinct possibility--yet keep coming back for more, year after year, century after century, in ever-increasing numbers and strength, should suggest they're doing something right, other than being the Mongol Horde of the game.

If anything, to me the goblins ironically seem rather like Vikings, with a bunch of stable Norwegian farmers and rich landholders back home.

[Neonivek]

It is their biology. They can breed and breed and live forever.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Biology doesn't work that way, and evolution even less so. We have the ability to make tools and form relationships because of biology, but we make better tools and form stronger relationships because of tools we made before, and how we relate to, work with, and learn from, the people around us, and who came before us.

In other words: we developed advanced tools, skills, relationships, language, culture, laws, government, problem-solving, what have you, over time, because of ongoing civilization, and that's what keeps humans breeding and surviving.

Goblins need food. You can't get around that. They can't be breeding like rabbits, fighting like shrews, and eating like locusts, while maintaining military viability, without the infrastructure to support that, and on top of that, consistently keep increasing their numbers.

You need a decent civilization to do those things, or environmental factors inevitably and quickly ruin you. It's happened over and over again to relatively advanced, not always extremely aggressive human civilizations, who didn't breed as fast as goblins apparently do, and who didn't try fighting a war with multiple other civilizations who have access to equal or better technology.

[Neonivek]

Actually what it means SirHoneyBadger is that the goblins arn't limited by their breeding rates like human beings are.

When you can replenish your numbers extremely quickly (in the Goblin's and Elf's case through magic) from dwindling numbers despite a constant drain from infighting.

You can't get around that

They use the Elf method. Magic. Which annoys me but Dwarf Fortress likes to gloss over things like Biodiversity and available food sources. ESPECIALLY when your handling civilisations with limited food stock such as Elves and Goblins.

In otherwords Goblins eat magic and sometimes meat.

You need a decent civilization to do those things

Actually when you think of it why can't an intelligent species ALSO have efficiant animal capacities? Especially in a fantasy setting.

Heck Goblins arn't technically a living creature so why are you even applying evolution onto them?

[SirHoneyBadger]

Magic is fine if that's all you can come up with, and it ofcourse functions as an all-encompassing handwave in a fantasy setting. I wouldn't call it a thought-provoking mental exercise, but you are correct in that it's there, it irrefutably exists as an explanation for whatever you want it to explain away, much like mud exists.

It doesn't necessarily work satisfactorily to explain what's going on in a game like Dwarf Fortress, however, where you really do have things like ecologies, seasons, genetic diversity, agriculture, birth rates, and food spoilage.

And why not apply genetics to them? Hereditary traits will soon become a part of the game, if they haven't already. Goblins are as alive as our dwarfs are--possibly slightly more, for some definitions of life, considering that we have less direct control over them.

As a counter to your argument, why shouldn't goblins be able to have advanced civilizations? Even ones which are in some ways superior to the other sentients?
I've already mentioned that they commit extremely threatening, aggressive, and immoral acts against the others, so they wouldn't lose their "evil" status. It just makes them a much more interesting, deep, and viable, threat and challenge.

And I'd personally feel a lot more comfortably "heroic" acting out a war against a civilization with many advantages, that still acts thuggish and evil by choice, than a primitive one that's simply doing what environmental factors and biology have forced upon it.   

[Neonivek]

Well specifically Goblins live in a world where the book "Leviathan" is true.

Magic is fine if that's all you can come up with, and it ofcourse functions as an all-encompassing handwave in a fantasy setting. I wouldn't call it a thought-provoking mental exercise, but you are correct in that it's there, it irrefutably exists as an explanation for whatever you want it to explain away, much like mud exists

Well you explain how a stationary civilisation without farms is capable of living off of only meat without magic.

As a counter to your argument, why shouldn't goblins be able to have advanced civilizations? Even ones which are in some ways superior to the other sentients?

They definately could. I just think it is a leap to call their civilisation all so advanced just because they are still around.

I've already mentioned that they commit extremely threatening, aggressive, and immoral acts against the others, so they wouldn't lose their "evil" status. It just makes them a much more interesting, deep, and viable, threat and challenge

Actually their infighting may be their greatest asset to their immortal, baby booming, society. It is a way that only their greatest warriors are still around. Any leader they have would be a great leader.

I always assumed that Goblin technology was given to them either by spoiler or a continuous stream of great leaders who were able to unite them from their crazy infighting.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Well specifically Goblins live in a world where the book "Leviathan" is true.

While I thank you for the compliment, I haven't actually read, or am even familiar with, every book ever written. I'm guessing you mean the one by Thomas Hobbes?

"Magic is fine if that's all you can come up with, and it ofcourse functions as an all-encompassing handwave in a fantasy setting. I wouldn't call it a thought-provoking mental exercise, but you are correct in that it's there, it irrefutably exists as an explanation for whatever you want it to explain away, much like mud exists"

Well you explain how a stationary civilisation without farms is capable of living off of only meat without magic.

The same explanation as to why the Suggestions Forum exists, and why I keep suggesting: ToadyOne isn't done yet, and I trust he'll have done an exemplary job when he is.

"As a counter to your argument, why shouldn't goblins be able to have advanced civilizations? Even ones which are in some ways superior to the other sentients?"

They definately could. I just think it is a leap to call their civilisation all so advanced just because they are still around.

I may be making a leap, but it isn't purely based on their existence, alone, and my explanation entertains me better than "They have a lot of sex, and are really pissed off about that.".

"I've already mentioned that they commit extremely threatening, aggressive, and immoral acts against the others, so they wouldn't lose their "evil" status. It just makes them a much more interesting, deep, and viable, threat and challenge"

Actually their infighting may be their greatest asset to their immortal, baby booming, society. It is a way that only their greatest warriors are still around. Any leader they have would be a great leader.

A large gap can exist between being a great warrior, and a great tactician, and the difference between one and the other often is the number of years of study and experience. War is where great leaders go to die, not to survive. Particularly when the battles being fought are constant, internal, and petty, and political assassination is rampant, which it likely would be, in the environment you suggest.

Fast turnover produces poor leadership, because those leaders have less time to learn from their mistakes, pass on their knowledge to future generations, and even to earn the confidence of the ones being led--which isn't insignificant. Alexander the Great (who's father was assassinated, possibly by Alexander) was extremely well-educated for his time, and a genius tutored by a genius, and left behind a vast empire at about my age--an empire that quickly dissolved into massive civil wars, after his death.

The Greeks, as advanced as they were, although their doctors and scientists were held in highest regard practically everywhere west of China, although they continued to produce some of the toughest, finest soldiers in the Roman Empire, although they held the secrets of the most devastating weapons in the Byzantine arsenal, never again became an independent superpower.

I always assumed that Goblin technology was given to them either by spoiler or a continuous stream of great leaders who were able to unite them from their crazy infighting.

If that were so, they'd never have the sheer quantities of arms and armour they equip themselves with. There's a reason seiges are considered a great source of raw iron. If they are simply despoiling it, then who else is out there, churning it out in such mass quantities?
It's not the dwarfs or humans, because it's narrow, and it's not the elves, because it's iron. No reason to consider the kobolds, among other reasons it's too big.
 
And if there is a fourth option, then why are they such good crafters, but such poor soldiers, that the goblins are taking it all away from them?

As far as goblins being immortal: If the ones we encounter had lived long enough to finally grow tired of neverending youth, lust, and power, in an environment of continuous battle, then wouldn't they be nigh-unstoppable juggernauts, legendary in every fighting skill? Shouldn't they be the ones hewing our poor dorfs down left and right, instead of our champions slaughtering them, en masse?

[Neonivek]

Well the resources Goblins seem to find happens because of magic as well.

then wouldn't they be nigh-unstoppable juggernauts, legendary in every fighting skill? Shouldn't they be the ones hewing our poor dorfs down left and right, instead of our champions slaughtering them, en masse?

Magic

[SirHoneyBadger]

Well the resources Goblins seem to find happens because of magic as well.

I'll remind you that the Suggestions Forum is for making the game more interesting, not less.

[Max White]

So glad you two can tell the differance between a black box story telling method currently implmented to fill in missing logic from an unfinished game, and a vision of the final product of a game that isn't your own. Debate on a similar page guy.