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[Argembarger]

Argembarger: Which do you think is more likely: Most of Book's actions were meant to make him look more townlike, or most of his actions were meant to implicate people after his death?  I'm personally tending towards the latter: Book was taking an action that was almost definitely going to get him vengekilled.

Oh, certainly the latter. I'm sure Book cared not a whit how town he did or didn't look; he pretty much knew his fate was sealed.

Maybe that's not the case at the beginning of the game, before he started really drilling into Pandar. I'm sure early on he was trying to appear townlike.

But he had to have known Pandar was going to vengekill him. Why not spread confusion and implicate town upon death?

However, I have to wonder about your switch from "And Jack's been open with his opinions and analytical and logical like a townie." to "Look, everyone, Jack's not open enough with his opinions, so he's afraid of scrutiny and scummy!"

Hm. You have a point. That is what I said before. I think I derped up my wording a bit. What I meant is that, while you were open and straightforward with your opinion, you didn't seem as willing to press on them. The difference between you and Native in that regard is admittedly very small, and Native is a much more experienced player than you, which does raise my eyebrow a bit... especially because I compared you two as being basically equal.

I suppose I can't fault you for acting cautiously in a Vengeful, either.

Here, answer me this though: Would you have voted Pandar if you had known for certain that I would decide to throw the hammer?

Argem: Though his statement was indeed WIFOM, I do find your hammer suspicious, but not damning. I don't tend to let things go because a confirmed scum pointed you out for it earlier. That's how scum wins games, by misdirection. "Oh, Argem can't be Book's scumbuddy, there's no way Book would point out his buddy when he's probably gonna get vengekilled". However, I don't hold it in as high regard as you might think for the very same reason, it's just something to note.

Well, there's a few things I can point out in my interaction between myself and Book.

You can call it WIFOM or consider it legitimate evidence. It's up to you, but it's certainly there for analysis.

Here I try to attack Book quite early in the game. Not only that, but I did so after this exchange:

Jack A T: If you were the godfather, would you consider bussing your mafioso from the start of the game?

That's an interesting question. Arg: Would you? Feel free to wait until Jack responds before answering if you wish.

I think I probably would, actually. It seems like it'd be a fairly powerful and devious strategy, as long as the Godfather is skilled and experienced, and neither one of them does anything particularly stupid.

Book: How should a mafioso act in relation to the Godfather?

In the scumchat, with obsequious deference, swooning admiration, and sycophantic devotion ("Yes sir, Mr. Bossman! Your wish is my command, Your Deviousness!"). In the thread, exactly the same as with any other player.

Hm, let me try a different angle:

You're the Mafioso, and your Godfather is coming under some heavy pressure. What do you do?

In retrospect, Book ended up flipping Mafioso. There's not even really all that much WIFOM here, to be honest. There's a little bit, but those questions were pretty damn specific. Either I am the Godfather and have BALLS OF STEEL, or I'm town and that exchange had no emotional weight for me at all because I was ignorant.

Not long after that point is when Book starts attacking Pandar. I admittedly end up dropping my attack, but that's mostly because Pandar was acting terrible and I honestly thought he was scum and was having a hard time believing that Book would be bussing his scumpartner that hard.

[Argembarger]

Edit by way of double-post.

Whoops, the link I posted goes to the Modify Post page. I have no idea what will happen if you guys click it, since you aren't me and can't actually modify my posts.

The quote that link leads to is this:

Wow, Book. Aren't you an active one? Answering questions meant for other people... Taking over my line of questioning for Jack...

Jack: You haven't asked anyone any questions at all since the one on your first post. How do you plan to find the scum if you don't ask questions? What's your opinion on Native's answers above? How about Pandar's apparent disinterest in scumhunting? Please ask Arg two useful questions, and after he has answered, give your own answers as well.

This looks quite suspiciously like mentoring to me. What's up with that?

Smaller FOS on NativeForeigner. Your vote is still on Book from your initial random vote. Why? State your case. I don't think you have one though, since all you've pretty much done after your first post is react to others and defend yourself.

which, chronologically, comes some time after this:

Jack A T: If you were the godfather, would you consider bussing your mafioso from the start of the game?

That's an interesting question. Arg: Would you? Feel free to wait until Jack responds before answering if you wish.

I think I probably would, actually. It seems like it'd be a fairly powerful and devious strategy, as long as the Godfather is skilled and experienced, and neither one of them does anything particularly stupid.

Book: How should a mafioso act in relation to the Godfather?

In the scumchat, with obsequious deference, swooning admiration, and sycophantic devotion ("Yes sir, Mr. Bossman! Your wish is my command, Your Deviousness!"). In the thread, exactly the same as with any other player.

Hm, let me try a different angle:

You're the Mafioso, and your Godfather is coming under some heavy pressure. What do you do?

</clarification>

[NativeForeigner]

Argem: That's a tough thing to judge. You could very well be a Godfather with brass balls, but I have a feeling that you would have followed through if you were.

Heading to class, questions later.

[Jack A T]

Here, answer me this though: Would you have voted Pandar if you had known for certain that I would decide to throw the hammer?

Probably.  I was kind of expecting a hammer soon after I voted.  The game had hit a rather sloggy, insulty point.

[Argembarger]

Native, questions later, eh? lie/lurk hardr/etc.

Be scum less?

I'd like you both to state who your current pick is, and present your case on that person.

Mine would have to be NativeForeigner now, because he's contributed very little at this critical junction in the game. His posts look like the kind of posts of someone who is attempting to avoid attention. While I did suspect Jack more at first, the way he stood up to my pressure and the logic he used to counter me, while not confirming him as town, is certainly evidence to that end. His evidence for being town outweighs Native's evidence for the same, and thus Native is now my current suspicion.

And then on top of that, Native went and claimed to contribute later, but didn't. (It's been 31 hours!) That's Toaster's #1 scumtell.

His biggest (only?) reason to suspect me is that I hammered Pandar, and he admits even that isn't really anything damning given the circumstances. He doesn't seem to have a case on Jack, which suggests to me that he is scum having trouble inventing reasons why Jack or I could be the same.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more convinced I become that Native is the Godfather.

If it wasn't for the ever-present threat of a quick hammer, I'd vote him right now.

As it stands though, I'd rather get both of your input. Informed decisions are the best kinds of decisions.

Who knows? Maybe Native has a really solid case on me or Jack that he's been keeping to himself. Maybe he has compelling evidence that he is town.

I somewhat doubt it, though.

[Jack A T]

My current pick is NativeForeigner.  My reasoning is basically the same as my previously stated reasoning, plus the whole "claim to be contributing later without actually contributing in a timely manner" thing.

So, basically, something about his behaviour feels off to me, and he hasn't given the promised contribution yet.

...That sounded a lot stronger in my mind, but oh well.

[NativeForeigner]

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-

Had a HUGE fucking post read and it got lost. Re-writing it now.

[NativeForeigner]

Sorry guys, but real life happens. I said that yesterday, a Thursday. Things happen, like school, work, and the weekend. I'm here now.

My primary suspicion has been waffling a bit, but after a reread of the thread, Jack is definitely scum.

Argem, you're a smart man not to have voted me. A loss by insta-hammer would have happened. Here's why:

The entire game, he's seemed disinterested in scumhunting and only piggybacked off of Book's arguments against Pandar. Really, any of the questions he asked didn't do much for the game, they were all essentially all "What do you think of so and so?" "What's your read on blank?" "Why did you join in the middle of midterms?", etc.

In addition to his disinterest, there's been subtle interactions between he and Book that screams "scumbuddies" been I went back to look at it. The first post that caught my attention was when he subtly buddied Book and essentially ignored him for the rest of the game because he was "scumhunting". In that post, he was offering a very basic read of Book and setting up an excuse as to why he wouldn't be pushing Book pretty much at all. By that logic, anyone who scumhunts is CLEARLY town! Look how well that turned out. Another reason for me to believe that this is what's going on was Book's very next post. He says nothing of the subtle buddy (probably to avoid bringing attention to it) and instead distances himself from Jack by pointing out his lack of good question-asking and his lack of commitment. He doesn't go so far as to call Jack scummy, however. Likely to avoid making the distancing too obvious. Seeing as how Book is an experienced player, this seems likely.

What only confirmed my suspicions of a connection between Book and Jack was most of page seven. When asked about the accusations of lying going on between Pandar and Book, he gives what might seem like a fair answer, neither party is lying. However, it seems almost solely "Pro-Book, Anti-Pandar". He claims that Pandar is OMGUSing which, admittedly, was probably true. But on the case of lying, the only thing even related to Book's half of the questions was essentially "neither side has lied". He then points out all of Pandar's excuses and a poor argument of Pandar's followed by "Oh, but he hasn't lied." It seems strange to me that he brought all of that up about Pandar, but said not a word more about Book.

But what really got me (but not until after I took everything into consideration and had reread) was this post. He voted for Pandar first (second if you include Book's vote). He doesn't even offer a reason for it other than it was getting "uninteresting". Which is funny, because he never really seemed too interested in the first place. It seemed more like Book told him to vote Pandar so he wouldn't have to be the one to hammer, but Jack didn't have a strong reason to at the time, so he played the "it's been going on for too long" card. He couldn't even think of a proper, put-someone-in-lynch-ready position when I asked him about it. He simply gave a quick rehash of some things Book had mentioned about Pandar. None of which are very strong points at all, especially in a game as risky as this.

Also worth mentioning is his very first post after the lynch. Looking back on it, that post was a damned trap. He was trying to accomplish one or two things. 1) He was attempting to make me suspect Argem on reasonable grounds. It worked for a little, but then I really looked into things. 2) Make me look scummy. If I had answered differently, even if I had essentially said the same thing, it could have SCREAMED scum, and you can bet he would have been all over me for that.

ALSO worth mention is his latest post. This one's a little more WIFOM-y, but it's still worth mentioning. He saw Argem FoS me and jumped at the chance to get me out of here. His only reasons for "suspecting" me are because my posts had a "cold, distant feeling" to them and because I didn't contribute in a "timely matter". Oh, and my behavior feels "off". All of which is nonsense. Yeah, I didn't contribute the SAME day. I said later, not later that night. In fact, that post caused me to reread the thread. It's a classic "I don't really have a reason to suspect you, but here are some bullshit reasons" scum post. He presented no case.

Therefore, Jack A T is scum.

Jack: Do you have ANYTHING to say for yourself?

[Argembarger]

Native, bluuhhh way to make me doubt my own judgement and stuff.

Jack, rebuttal?

There's gotta be a way to clear this up.

What if we all made a post explaining the motivation and reasoning behind every post we've made this game?


On the other hand, that may be unnecessary.

Native's case: quotes + analysis + evidence

Jack's case: "something just feels off"


... I am ashamed at how much my opinion is flip-flopping. But I refuse to make a dumbass hasty mistake now.

That said, now I'm leaning Jack again. FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuu-

[Jack A T]

Here you go.  One rebuttal:

But on the case of lying, the only thing even related to Book's half of the questions was essentially "neither side has lied". He then points out all of Pandar's excuses and a poor argument of Pandar's followed by "Oh, but he hasn't lied." It seems strange to me that he brought all of that up about Pandar, but said not a word more about Book.

Pandar was using shitty arguments, but he wasn't lying, and Book was accusing Pandar of lying based on that.  And then Pandar was accusing Book of lying based on those accusations.  I was trying to get that utter stupidity to stop.

Yes, throughout day 1, I rather trusted Book.  I trusted him because he was actively scumhunting and because his arguments made more sense than Pandar's.  That trust turned out to be stupid, as we know now, but he was still more trustworthy-looking than Pandar during day 1.

Oh, and I mentioned Pandar's utterly nonsensical argument originally, and Book barely used it.  So, trying to call that a Book talking point isn't such a great idea.  Especially seeing how it was my biggest reason to suspect Pandar.

And seriously, bringing up the explained "uninteresting" thing again as if I hadn't both made my opinion of Pandar clear over the previous posts, given my reasons in said previous posts, and explained the "uninteresting" thing today?  Really?

And now, for the less solid, more WIFOMy evidence:
*Everything you say about buddying, Native, seems to depend on me being a complete idiot as scum, who is constantly protecting his fellow scum at times when they're pretty much about to die no matter what.  Let's look at a recent game in which I was scum: Kingmaker 4.   In it, at the point where I actually got a chance to be active (Day 2), I was not exactly friendly with SaintDraze.  Much the opposite, in fact: Day 2 had some arguments against him from me and day 3 had a more massive argument against him than against the actual townie.  I may be new, but I'm not a complete idiot.
*I highly doubt that Book, an experienced player, would distance himself that much from his partner when he knows he's about to be vengekilled.  There's a reason why I pointed out the whole "Book probably wants to implicate a townie" thing.

Native: This is exactly what I needed: a good, solid, informative post from you that would allow me to actually have good evidence against you.  Thank you.  Thank you very much, NativeForeigner.  Hate to vote so early, but you've forced my hand.

Oh, right, and your point about my questions still needs a rebuttal:

Native: Please explain to me how most of your day 1 questions weren't stuff like "What do you think of <insert thing here?", "What do you think of everyone and why?", and such.  Also, explain to me how getting people's opinions on things, one of the central methods of gaining information about people, isn't actually a real contribution to the game.  (Wasn't that Book's argument against me anyway?  You seem to like using common arguments against me.  I might as well use them against you.)  Also, explain to me how asking Book why he was telling me to question Arg is a "What do you think of <insert thing here>?" question.

[Argembarger]

Well, whichever one of you is town, rest assured you have voted the scum. I am town. If I was scum, I would be a massive asshole for waiting this long to hammer and getting your hopes up. That would be very poor sportsmanship.

I am too tired to make this decision now. I am going to leave it until tomorrow, do another big readthrough, take both arguments into account, and if nothing big comes up, make a decision.

I really hope I don't choose wrong.

[Argembarger]

I read through the thread again.

I think I know who I want to vote, except you're both being too quiet. This isn't helpful.

I'll give it another day.

I'm not telling who I feel like voting, either. That'll be a surprise.

Maybe it'll get you guys talking a bit. Maybe we can get this done.

Otherwise, don't blame me if I vote you, because you're squandering your last chance to get a word in.

[Jack A T]

I'm pretty much waiting on Native.  He's got some explaining to do.

Oh, and I thought of something while at school today: the guy voted really early.  Really, really early.  Not much had happened during the day, and I had outright said that I needed more information to actually get a good opinion.  He voted as if he was sure that there was no way that anyone would quickhammer.  As if he was convinced without a doubt.  Of course he knew there wouldn't be a quickhammer: he's scum.

I really should've included this in my previous post.

[NativeForeigner]

I'm way too tired to make a decent post right now. I'll get on a reply tomorrow afternoon or so.

Also, Jack, I'm not entirely sure what you're saying in your latest post? Could you please elaborate?

[Jack A T]

I tried to say that you voted rather early today (a rather risky move for a townie), as if you were completely convinced, without a doubt, that I'm scum...or as if you were scum, who would already know that there wouldn't be a quicklynch.

Tiredness: Understandable.  Not going to try to use that against you.

For now, I'll just be awaiting Native's reply.