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[Book]

Wow, Book. Aren't you an active one? Answering questions meant for other people... Taking over my line of questioning for Jack...

Well, I'm not very busy at the moment, so why not chime in? About your line of questioning, yes I did, sorry; as I said, I thought your question was particularly interesting (so I asked it of you), and Jack's reply seemed wanting, so I insisted. But yeah, I shouldn't bogart other's targets.

This looks quite suspiciously like mentoring to me. What's up with that?

Just trying to get him involved, get him talking, see how his mind works. That's what the game's about, yes?
_{Plus, if he becomes too withdrawn or betrays being afraid to speak, that's a pretty good noobscum tell.}


How about you? what's your take on Native's answers and Pandar's non-answers?

[Argembarger]

My stance on Native is clear from my previous post.

Pandar's guilty of much of the same, actually.

I think it's safe to say we're getting out of RVS. Pandar's anti-RVS meta can't help him any longer (it's not too terribly legit of a meta to begin with)

What say, Pandar? Any suspicions, or shall you just fritter away the time trying to defend yourself in lieu of scumhunting (so you and Book can stupidly grief each other about font color)?

[NativeForeigner]

Smaller FOS on NativeForeigner. Your vote is still on Book from your initial random vote. Why? State your case. I don't think you have one though, since all you've pretty much done after your first post is react to others and defend yourself.

Hrm, you're right, I don't have one. It's just a clinging RV. Unvote.

I'll come up with some questions to ask something tonight or tomorrow.

[Jack A T]

Jack: You haven't asked anyone any questions at all since the one on your first post. How do you plan to find the scum if you don't ask questions? What's your opinion on Native's answers above? How about Pandar's apparent disinterest in scumhunting? Please ask Arg two useful questions, and after he has answered, give your own answers as well.

*Native's answers: They feel like pretty standard answers.  I don't have the problems you have with the use of the word "certain", if only because I've seen it weakened heavily by other people to the point where it seems to only mean "pretty sure".
*Pandar's scumhunting: Annoying, and rather unlike his behaviour in BYOR 6.3, in which he actually questioned people at the start of the game.  Also unlike his behaviour at the start of Kingmaker 4, but, well...I'm not going to use that as evidence here.

And now, my planned question rush, with a couple questions added:

Pandarsenic: What are your opinions of people other than Book?  Also, why join something like this in the middle of your midterms?
NativeForeigner: Who, at the moment, is your top scumpick, and why?
Argembarger: What do you think of Pandarsenic's apparent hatred of RVS?
Argembarger again: What do you think of Book's choice to direct me towards you?
Book: What do you think about people other than Pandarsenic at the moment?  Also, why Argembarger specifically?

[Book]

BYOR 6.3 [...] Kingmaker 4.

DUDE! NO TALKING ABOUT ONGOING GAMES OUTSIDE THE THREAD! That's massively uncool!

Book: What do you think about people other than Pandarsenic at the moment?  Also, why Argembarger specifically?

For why Arg, because I had already mentioned everyone else in that paragraph; didn't want to seem repetitive. For everyone else, mostly it's too early to tell. You've been quiet and not asking enough questions, I'm leaning scum on you; Native and Arg seem to be clearspoken and straightforward enough, seem neutral-to-townish, but it's really too early to have a strong feeling about them. For Pandar, his evasiveness and inattentiveness seem scummy, he should know better, and I don't buy the "I hate RVS" meta thing at all. He's the scummiest.

But the game is very young still.

[Argembarger]

Argembarger: What do you think of Pandarsenic's apparent hatred of RVS?

I can understand it, I guess. We have a few people around here that just can't stand RVS and do nothing at all during it. Jokerman comes to mind, as well as Pandarsenic.
I don't really like it though. If people don't do anything during RVS, nothing will get going, and day 1 lynches become literal coin tosses.

The typical counterargument is that they don't do anything during RVS because other people do, and they wait for the conversation to pick up before they start hunting... But that just sounds like they're piggybacking off of other people's work in order to justify being lazy until later in the game.

I don't like it, but unfortunately, Pandar has it as a fairly established meta as both town and scum, so it's a null-tell. Now that discussion is going stronger, though, he ought to start talking or else I shall use his lack of contributing as a solid reason to suspect him.

Argembarger again: What do you think of Book's choice to direct me towards you?

It's possibly because you and I are the least-experienced players here, so Book feels like a good amount of information can be gleaned by demanding that you question me.

If he's scum, he's likely giving us an opportunity to say something newby and stupid to latch on to.
If he's town, he's getting reads on us and POSSIBLY hunting vicariously through you.

Because there's motivation as both scum and town, the act of asking you to question me is neutral.

His follow-up, however, could be revealing.

So, Book, what happens now?

PPE:

Yes, no talkin' 'bout other games, kthx.

Ok Book, here's another question for you:

For Pandar, his evasiveness and inattentiveness seem scummy, he should know better, and I don't buy the "I hate RVS" meta thing at all. He's the scummiest.

But the game is very young still.

You say you don't buy Pandar's RVS-meta-hate.

This could mean that you don't think that his meta for RVS isn't consistent enough for him to make that claim,
or it could mean you find it scummy in spite of it being one of his meta traits.

Which is it, and why?

If it's the first one, could you link me to some counterexamples to disprove it? I've done some homework, and his disliking-RVS-meta seems to check out solidly enough. I could be mistaken though, I only looked through several games.

Pandarsenic: current suspicions?

[Book]

His follow-up, however, could be revealing.
So, Book, what happens now?

Hrm... I don't understand the question. What happens with what? What follow up? I asked him to then post answers to the same questions (which, given his choices, end up with the cumbersome "what do I think about what he thinks about him pointing me to you" or something weird like that).

Ok Book, here's another question for you:
You say you don't buy Pandar's RVS-meta-hate.

This could mean that you don't think that his meta for RVS isn't consistent enough for him to make that claim, or it could mean you find it scummy in spite of it being one of his meta traits.

Which is it, and why?

If it's the first one, could you link me to some counterexamples to disprove it? I've done some homework, and his disliking-RVS-meta seems to check out solidly enough. I could be mistaken though, I only looked through several games.

Both really. I don't buy that's consistent meta for him. Yeah, he sometimes lurks through it, but not always or even that often, and specifically not in VM games. He's participated more than here in all earlier ones (well, I didn't check VM1), both in the whimsical banter and the actual suspicions/hunting. See for example VM4:

GG opens with pointless flavor and a FoS on Wuba with a question of reasonable substance.
Janus immediately randomvotes IronyOwl.
IronyOwl dismisses Janus' No Substance with some No Substance, then IronyOwl IS A MEAN JERK WHO IS MEAN to me.
Wuba is arrogant. What a shock. He then asks a silly question to GG.
I answer THE MEAN JERK WHO IS MEAN and he unvotes me. He then votes GG and asks about Meta. Ewww, Meta.
Janus snarks at Wuba then accuses me of being the partner of a MEAN JERK WHO IS MEAN.
He hen herps and derps at my post.
Irony votes him for being derp.
GG points out maybe we shouldn't vote like mad in a game with 3-man hammers. Fair enough, despite the vengekill mechanic.

JanusTwoFace, why are you herping?
IronyOwl, are you also derping?

That is, more specifically:

Janus, do you really believe you've pegged me and IronyOwl as scum? If IronyOwl is

Yep.  Definately scum.

Is there some reason you are not voting him, if you're so certain? Or are you merely attempting to pressure him without so much as an FoS to apply actual pressure? And without asking him any questions?

IronyOwl, how sure are you that Janus is scum? Would you vengekill him if you were lynched?

Or VM3:

Ehh... not so much strategy as "Heyyyy people are scummy let's attack them."

Also if you're town and you make yourself look scummy by buddying/screening people and then I lynch you with the mafia and you flip town SO HELP ME GAWD I WILL KICK A KITTEN.

Not really, kittens are adorable, but still DON'T DO IT D:<

Or VM2:

Breadbocks, since forcing people to look at me doesn't work quite so hawtt in small games, I'm instead going to make sure everyone is forced to stay active.

Zathras:

1) Don't buddy me. You're like "GRAWR TOWN LOSES BECAUSE OF YOU" for days then the game starts and I'm suddenly "da man"? What changed?
2) Why would you ask Spade that? If he tells you how he scumslips it's totally null if he does those things. Same for how he plays scum.

...all of these at an earlier part of the game than where we are now, and in all of them he knows who he's talking to, who's answering who's questions, and so on. I don't care whether he hates it or not, he participates and pays attention. He's not doing that here. He should know better. He has done better. His not even knowing who's asking what I find quite scummy, seems a clear indication he doesn't care who the scum is (because he knows), he just wants to appear to care. Since he failed at that, he yells at people and then cowardly runs away. That last part, though, is firmly within his meta.

[Argembarger]

That is fairly compelling.

I must admit I didn't bother looking back through the other VM's. Which is extremely silly because that's exactly what we're playing.

Herp-a-Derp.


Anyway, did Jack A T's questions or my answers mean anything to you? That was the idea behind "What happens now?"

[Book]

His follow-up, however, could be revealing.
So, Book, what happens now?

did Jack A T's questions or my answers mean anything to you? That was the idea behind "What happens now?"

Nothing in particular yet, just getting y'all to talk is all. All your words will be taken into account when pertinent, but nothing jumps to mind at the moment. Why? Do you think I should have an opinion now? You seem oddly interested, like you were looking for validation that you indeed don't look as scummy as you fear you do... Or maybe reassurance that you can fool me, or something. Funny. Scummy-funny, not haha-funny.

Well, a bit haha-funny too.

[Jack A T]

Okay.

First: Oops, wasn't aware of that rule.

Second: Because Book wanted my answers to my Arg questions:
*I think Pandar's apparent hatred of RVS, as Book showed, is a terrible excuse.
*I'm really not sure what to make of Book's choice to direct me towards Arg.  His reason seems okayish, but it still feels off somehow.

I'll wait for more answers.

[Pandarsenic]

Primary suspicion:

Book"I'mma make bullshit reasons to vote you"thras

I don't believe he's dumb enough to not see that I hate the RVS flailing and that I wait for the game to progress to real play before contributing each time.

Book, if you were Godfather, who would you want as your Mafioso? If you were the Mafioso, who would you want as your Godfather?

Also, why are you constantly asking and answering questions for other people? Half the reason I was so out-of-it on who was who this afternoon is because you answered everything for everyone.

Jack A T, why is my hatred of RVS a terrible excuse, considering that the discussion of that very hatred allowed us to stop wasting time in RVS?

NativeForeigner, I'm exhausted and I can feel my eyeballs but now that the godawful abomination that is the RVS is over I'm contributing. Why aren't you?

Back to Bookthras (this is separate from the earlier part for him because it's not a question it's an order), you will notice in all of those occasions in your RVS-hate example, I was responding to something.

The first post of a Mafia game cannot, by nature, have relevant non-RVS-y content. There's nothing to respond to. Get over it.

[Argembarger]

Book, I'll be interested in your affairs all I like, thanks.

Especially when they're active and currently around to push and prod and try to analyze. It's a better use of my time than waiting on Pandar and Native, both of whom I have questions pending for.

That said, your answers have been generally satisfying.

PPE:

Ohai Pandar!

Primary suspicion:

Book"I'mma make bullshit reasons to vote you"thras

I don't believe he's dumb enough to not see that I hate the RVS flailing and that I wait for the game to progress to real play before contributing each time.

Book, if you were Godfather, who would you want as your Mafioso? If you were the Mafioso, who would you want as your Godfather?

[...]

The first post of a Mafia game cannot, by nature, have relevant non-RVS-y content. There's nothing to respond to. Get over it.

You're saying that RVS is, basically, stupid and pointless and you refuse to participate in it because of that,

And then immediately afterwards, you ask a question that is BASICALLY a de facto RVS question.

wat?

Couldn't you have just gotten that question out of the way during RVS?

[Book]

I don't believe he's dumb enough to not see that I hate the RVS flailing and that I wait for the game to progress to real play before contributing each time. [...] you will notice in all of those occasions in your RVS-hate example, I was responding to something.

Bullshit. I stand by my evidence that this is clearly not always, or even often, the case. But doesn't matter, you say it's over and that you're ready to play now. Good. Too bad you can't undo crap like this:

Also, why are you constantly asking and answering questions for other people? Half the reason I was so out-of-it on who was who this afternoon is because you answered everything for everyone.

So, it's my fault that you can't read the post you're replaying to? Or that you mistook Argembarger for Jack? What did I have to do with that? Bullshit again, you are asking us to overlook your clear detachment and disinterest of who was doing what. That's your job, and blaming the rest of the players, or a made up I-hate-this-part crap reason, for your failure to do your job is disingenuous and scummy. Accepting responsibility would be indicated, trying to deflect it is indicative of you not wanting to seem scummy for your misdeeds.

And none of this answers why you spent time with flavour questions, or grumbling about font colours while you were supposed to be, and everyone else was scumhunting.

Book, if you were Godfather, who would you want as your Mafioso? If you were the Mafioso, who would you want as your Godfather?

You to both, of course. Nice RVS question. Shouldn't you have asked that instead of the flavour one? Or did you need to wait for everyone else to be hunting before you could think of that very original gem of penetrating insight?

[Pandarsenic]

Hey Book, who other than me would you want for those?

I'm not amused by your "HERPADERP PANDAR IS SCUMMY BUT I'D WANT HIM AS MY PARTNER" games.

[Book]

Hey Book

Oh, isn't it cute how we fall into familiar patterns, Pandar baby? Have you anything original to say? Should I vengekill you now, or should we wait? Could you be troubled to describe your current readings of the other three players here, before we nuke each other? (you do remember there's three other people here, yes?)

who other than me would you want for those? I'm not amused by your "HERPADERP PANDAR IS SCUMMY BUT I'D WANT HIM AS MY PARTNER" games.

Sure: Arg & NF. Or NF & Arg. Sorry Jack, we've not had the chance to play together before really, so I can't choose you from the limited group presented to me; I'm sure you are or will become great, but from the others, I know Arg or NF would be great GodFathers or Mafiosos if I couldn't choose the MAIN PANDARMAN!


And, just to make sure you don't miss it:

Book, if you were Godfather, who would you want as your Mafioso? If you were the Mafioso, who would you want as your Godfather?

Pandarsenic: Shouldn't you have asked that question instead of the flavour one? Or did you need to wait for everyone else to be hunting before you could think of that very original gem of penetrating insight? Answer this.

And also:

you will notice in all of those occasions in your RVS-hate example, I was responding to something.

Weren't you also "responding to something" here? And yet, you missed who was asking what and whose question you were responding to. So, what's your point? All those items I linked to, you were either asking an original question (oh, would be we so lucky!) or answering to someone whose name you knew. What's different now?