Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[SeriousConcentrate]

There could still be a difference between the two werewolves. Technically, Alexander's class is Feral Werewolf and Alora's is Lycanthropic Monk (difference being that one embraces the wolf and the other tries to control it).

[IronyOwl]

So after thinking it over a bit after an off-hand comment from V-Norrec, I've deduced part of what slowed this down initially is that I was handing out WAY too many bonuses to keep track of. Additionally it seems a lot of people who aren't old hands to it get easily confused by the skill and class system. Before I put in any more work on the character template, should I look into simplifying everything? (I'm mainly looking at you for this one, IO, since iirc you've GM'd a few long-running games in your time but I'd appreciate any comments/contributions/opinions anyone wants to post. ^^^)

Oops, missed this.

I'm not sure the bonuses specifically are what's hurting you, but simplifying things really does tend to be a solution for most slowdowns. I'll also say that situational bonuses are harder to keep track of than straight bonuses to different things, at least assuming you're tallying everything in a cheatsheet.

As an example, suppose somebody has +1 Attack from class, +1 Attack from a skill, +1 Attack from their weapon, +1 Attack vs Prone Opponents, +1 Attack vs Female Opponents, and +1 Attack vs Evil Opponents. Their cheatsheet would normally look something like this:

+3 Attack
 +1 vs Evil
 +1 vs Female
 +1 vs Prone

Not massively confusing, but this is just their attack line. It could potentially add up if they've got similar weirdness for defense and such, and especially if they've got anything that changes with the situation or that can't be described simply. For instance, adding and subtracting +1 Defense every time they attack or don't attack in a round would be a huge pain.

Overall though, you might look at how you're tracking information rather than how much of it you've got.

No other opinions? Meh, well, I guess I'll throw out some of the ideas I've been kicking around and get opinions on that instead. I'm thinking of reassigning things so you only get a class bonus, and that gets more powerful with the character's progress. For example, I'd rework Malleus's class bonus so that instead of a straight bonus to defense, it's instead high damage reduction. Malleus has five class upgrades (counting his initial one) so he might always take 25% less damage from every attack, or always takes 5 less damage than the attack causes, so forth, although he'd always take a minimum of one damage. I'm also open to suggestions on how you think your character's class skill would translate if you want to discuss it, in thread or PM doesn't matter.

Doing away with skills? That'd make me sad.

The other thing I was thinking of was improving subweapons in general by changing how weapons work. Weapons would deal different damage dice based on how powerful they are and can be upgraded to an infinite amount (so you don't have to get rid of a weapon you like), although only once after each level. Subweapons could also be upgraded in this manner, but their upgrades would be more powerful since they take MP to use. For example, after a boss you have the option to make your sword do 2d4 damage, or your throwing daggers to do 3d4 per use, or gain another use per round, that sort of thing. I'm thinking converting weapons in the manner of each additional +1 to damage becomes +1 die rank. If the average weapon deals 1d6, then a +1 inflicts 1d8, a +2 inflicts 2d4, +3 1d10, +4 1d12, etc.

This I generally approve of, though. The infinite but limited in pace upgrades sounds particularly good.

In keeping with how weapons work, I'd probably also change how armor works. I'd drop the under-utilized Movement stat entirely and make Defense just be a straight damage reduction on a point to point basis. All current Movement scores on armor would just change to be defense, so Claire's Leviathan Scale Armor (for example) would just become +4 Leviathan Scale Armor.

This would also make me sad, but I might be in a uniquely bad position to comment on it. I will say that having Defense be regular defense and then Movement be some special attack/special attack defense stat is kind of odd, though. I'll also say that Malleus getting hit with those imps was hilarious.

[SeriousConcentrate]

...

XD

Yeah, that was kind of funny. But it could still happen with the rewrites. As for the skills, I'm not sure that I really wanna get rid of them, I'm just kind of tired of answering the 'how do they work' question. Glad to hear from you. ^^^ Anyone else want to throw in while I'm still gathering data?

[adwarf]

The only suggestion I have is maybe to make the players keep up with their own statuses or something like that. You'd of course do the HP and MP thing but they'd be in charge of taking care it, and listing the bonuses they get when doing an action or something like that. Removes a load of work from you and fellow players keep each other from cheating, I'm sure no one would attempt that we're all honest people here

[Talarion]

I would help, but I'm notoriously bad at giving ideas for other people's systems

Sorry

[IronyOwl]

...

XD

Yeah, that was kind of funny. But it could still happen with the rewrites. As for the skills, I'm not sure that I really wanna get rid of them, I'm just kind of tired of answering the 'how do they work' question. Glad to hear from you. ^^^ Anyone else want to throw in while I'm still gathering data?

Hm. Maybe they just need to be simplified or formalized, then? Which ones keep coming up?

[SeriousConcentrate]

What's allowed, what's not allowed, when they are earned, etc. Pretty much all the questions. >.>

Also, @Tal: No problem. I'm just happy you said something so I know you have some interest. I prefer a 'I got nothing' over silence.

[IronyOwl]

Ah, that. That's kind of a hard decision between simplicity and allowing neat stuff, then.

I guess the real question is what you want skills to be able to do or represent or what. What's their intended function?

[SeriousConcentrate]

Originally I'd meant them to be small power-ups to allow the players to further sculpt their characters and make them unique. It quickly became obvious, however, that only a few skills were truly useful, so I just started suggesting everyone take those so they wouldn't feel gypped when a skill they'd chosen turned out to be kind of useless. That's a limitation of mine as a GM, though.

[IronyOwl]

Sounds like, if you want to follow the original plan, at least, what you want to do is make them all situational, then. That obviously runs contrary to simplifying things, but if you can create a certain set of relatively equal distinctions, you can let people specialize without going all crazy or making it a pain to track.

For instance, supposing every enemy (and possibly other players?) had a race and elemental affinity. Someone's skills could look like:

+3 Attack
 +2 vs Demons
 +1 vs Undead
+3 Defense
 +1 vs Ice
 +2 vs Dark

Varied, but still following a basic framework, albeit a lot less interesting than a chance of extra fire damage or whatever. Generally no less interesting than a straight attack or damage bonus, though.

The only real trouble, of course, is that everything has to be roughly equal in use to be a good option. You probably wouldn't want a distinction with only two or three choices anyway, but gender would be an obvious bad idea, for instance, because almost all enemies appear to be either male or genderless. Assigning everything an element in roughly equal proportions could also be tricky, which might lead to Dark attack or Fire defense being the most often-used skills, for instance.

And of course, this sort of framework doesn't necessarily preclude everything else, but it's a good starting point and obvious pool of default options.

[Caellath]

I'd love to contribute but...Uh...Yea.

Also, I'll check if I have time to try my hand at a sheet later even if it means waiting for an eternity to play. Many things have been sidetracking me lately.

[wolfchild]

Yea everyone pretty much picked the same set of skills until they were maxed, but I really have no way that I can suggest to make customisation but also simplicity

[freeformschooler]

Okay, I don't really understand your system fully... but in an RTD or RP, I've learned an excellent tip for both customization: model the mechanics after the players, not the other way around! So if someone is an ice mage with a whip, they don't necessarily have to gain the same abilities/skills/whatever else over time as another ice mage with a whip. Make it relevant to their character, not just their race and class description!

Also, as for stats/skills/whatever else adds to rolls, less is sometimes more. If you have three or four primary stats/skills, they can be just as if not even more relevant in gameplay than five or six or eight.

Complexity is not the same as customizability. You can have one without the other - a lesson I've learned the hard way!

[SeriousConcentrate]

Okay, I don't really understand your system fully

That would be the problem I'm hoping to fix with all this. Anyway, there already are only two primary stats: HP and MP. There are a few derived stats from equipment, skills, and sometimes class (Attack/Accuracy, Damage, Defense, Movement) that I'm hoping to reduce and simplify. Get rid of Movement, make Defense damage reduction instead of being the opposite of Attack, getting rid of Damage and just having weapons have different damage bonuses so some are better for different situations, so on.

Sounds like, if you want to follow the original plan, at least, what you want to do is make them all situational, then. That obviously runs contrary to simplifying things, but if you can create a certain set of relatively equal distinctions, you can let people specialize without going all crazy or making it a pain to track.

For instance, supposing every enemy (and possibly other players?) had a race and elemental affinity. Someone's skills could look like:

+3 Attack
 +2 vs Demons
 +1 vs Undead
+3 Defense
 +1 vs Ice
 +2 vs Dark

Varied, but still following a basic framework, albeit a lot less interesting than a chance of extra fire damage or whatever. Generally no less interesting than a straight attack or damage bonus, though.

The only real trouble, of course, is that everything has to be roughly equal in use to be a good option. You probably wouldn't want a distinction with only two or three choices anyway, but gender would be an obvious bad idea, for instance, because almost all enemies appear to be either male or genderless. Assigning everything an element in roughly equal proportions could also be tricky, which might lead to Dark attack or Fire defense being the most often-used skills, for instance.

And of course, this sort of framework doesn't necessarily preclude everything else, but it's a good starting point and obvious pool of default options.

I do like that suggestion, although it would be better for a GM who actually remembers things, IO. XD My problem might not be forgetfulness so much as shitty organization, though... I'll do some work on a sample character today and if I can get a look I like up on my wikidot, I'll provide a link so people can check it out and see if there's anything missing or could be improved, etc.

[Draignean]

Instead of completely getting rid of movement, you could consider turning it into an initiative bonus instead. It's not perfect, but initiative bonuses are fairly easy to keep track of. I seem to recall that the difference between the starting armors was a Movement/Defense trade off, so doing away with movement entirely might produce some problems.
I also agree with irony about the cheat sheets, those things are lifesavers.

I rather liked your basic system, but I also have a borderline insane love of complexity, so bear that in mind.

End random thoughts of a deceased player.