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[BishopX]

I'm not sure that this is true. The difference in aptitudes matters.

aptitudes alter the experience required by 2^(-apt/4)

Long blades (no cross traing) -2
Long blades (cross train) +2
Short blades +3

So advancing from an equal position while leveling only long blades requires 2^(1/2)=1.41 times as much experience as a human.
Leveling short blades first requires 2^(-3/4) and then 2^(-1/2) times as much experience. Google informs me that the sum of these two modifiers is 1.301. So leveling short blades and then cross training is actually 7% more efficient.

[G-Flex]

So advancing from an equal position while leveling only long blades requires 2^(1/2)=1.41 times as much experience as a human.

Where are you getting this aptitude of -1 from?

Leveling short blades first requires 2^(-3/4) and then 2^(-1/2) times as much experience.

Or this aptitude of +1?

[BishopX]

So advancing from an equal position while leveling only long blades requires 2^(1/2)=1.41 times as much experience as a human.

Where are you getting this aptitude of -1 from?

Leveling short blades first requires 2^(-3/4) and then 2^(-1/2) times as much experience.

Or this aptitude of +1?

Please note the denominator change.

A kobold has a -2 aptitude for long blades, and a +3 aptitude for short blades. Cross training adds 4 to the aptitude.

so short blade aptitude is 2^(-3/4)
Long blade is 2^(-(-2)/4)=2^(1/2)
and long blade with cross training is 2^(-(-2+4)/4=2^(-1/2)

Make sense?

[G-Flex]

Allow me to put this a different way.

Cross-training being active for a skill means that skill takes half the amount of XP to raise.

Raising short blades a number of skill levels S requires experience X_s. Raising long blades that same number of skill levels S requires experience X_l. With cross-training, it only takes X_l/2.

So raising long blades S skill levels without cross-training costs X_l, whereas raising it that amount after raising short blades to that same level to make it cheaper costs (X_l)/2 + X_s.

For this to be profitable, (X_l)/2 + X_s < X_l
(X_l)/2 - X_l < -X_s
-(X_l)/2 < -X_s
(X_l)/2 > X_s

In other words, the cost of raising long blades has to be more than double the cost of raising short blades.

In this case, that's true, so you're actually right. Neat!

However, there is a slight problem: XP gain to skills diminishes with your total XP; it takes more XP to raise a skill as your total XP count goes up. That might confound things enough here to make it still not worth it.

[BishopX]

My guess is that the gains/penalties in this debate are relatively small and less important than other factors specific to this case, namely weapon availability and Trog. Cross training increases your chances of getting useful randart or branded weapons. Trog's gifts use the acquirement code, which means that it's weighted towards your weapon skills, so cross traing decreases the odds of getting a long blade gift.

As an aside, I've noticed that Trog's gifts have changed somewhat from .7>.8, they seem less weighted now. I've gotten several axes,crossbows and slings in .8 when I had no skill, as opposed to only 1 crossbow in .7.

[Dr.Feelgood]

Welcome back to Let's Play Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Lair - part 2



L:5 looks like it'll fun. Let's give the inhabitants a proper greeting.



A herd of yaks appeared, so I decided to run upstairs and rest.



Hello there.



Nothing but bloodstains left. I wish blood could splatter on walls.



A komodo dragon is pretty tough enemy. Their (very painful) bites causes you to become sick, which means you can't regenerate over time until it wears off.



I killed the komodo dragon and yaks before any serious damage could be done. And I picked up those needles by the wall.



I thought elephants were afraid of rodents. I guess making elephants become immobile around rats would make Summon Small Mammals overpowered. 

Elephants are large and tough monsters that travels in packs and can trample you. In 0.8, all large monsters can trample you, which causes you to be knocked back a space.



These elephants kept knocking me away from the staircase. Not that it stops me from killing them.



I took the fight to a corridor, where a snake decided to join the party.



They all die quickly. The lair hasn't changed much in difficulty, since losing two levels. Every level, except for the last one, is pretty easy.



Sheep!

A stupid woolly animal...

Good description! If you die to a sheep you should quit playing Crawl.  Fun fact: Sheep have a chance of spreading sticky flames to other sheep. Too bad Trog won't let us do it.



Sadly, no other sheep fell through the shafts. On the bright side, Trog gave us another gift!



A sling of evasion. Evasion boosts your EV by 5. I wanted a crossbow, but I'll hang on to this.



A dagger of speed is surprisingly powerful with berserk. I'll show it off on these yaks.



Several turns later and dik-dik levels up!



It took awhile to kill everything with the dagger of speed, even with the noticeable damage boost.



Going north I encounter another pack of elephants. I might have some trouble killing them all, due to their high HP.





I decided to give the dagger of speed another chance, and I weakened the elephants before going berserk. Dik-dik's evocations skill is high enough to figure out how many charges are left after using a wand, though it may take a few zaps.



I managed to kill of most the elephants, but two are still alive and dik-dik is exhausted.



Fighting two elephants while slowed is suicidal, so I read a teleport scroll and swapped to my sling.



This is the spot where I landed. I rested up and went back looking for those elephants.



Here they are. There are a few items around here too.



Payback is fun!



That amulet I picked up was an amulet of faith.  Faith causes piety to increase 1/3 faster, but causes you to lose a third of your piety when removed. It's useful if you worship a gift giving god, like Trog, since you'll receive more gifts.



After searching most of the level I found a cloak. Now, all I need are gloves and all of by body slots are covered.



The last monster of this level is also a croc. This time I killed it without going berserk.

[Dr.Feelgood]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

27 stones? The devs sure do love that number.



I still can't kill a tiny lizard in one hit.



Trog gave me another quickblade. At least he still hasn't given me something completely useless. I picked up a wand near the snail corpse.



I tested it on an elephant. It's a wand of draining. Draining does less damage than a fire or cold, but has a chance of reducing a monster's HD. It also isn't very noisy, like its elemental equivalents. I still prefer wands of cold and fire over it.




This elephant is pretty stubborn. It refuses to die from all that poison.



The elephant eventually dies, but I followed it near a sleeping spiny frog and black mamba. A black mamba is a very fast and poisonous snake. Kill it asap or avoid it if you lack poison resistance. I decided to slowly back away and leave the area.



On the other side of the level, I run into another spiny frog and some jackals.



There's nothing like a convenient staircase for killing monsters.


Further north I found a pair of gauntlets. Now, all my slots are filled.

An entrance to the amorphous realm of acids, jellies and slimes.

The final side branch (in the Lair) - The Slime Pits! This is, by far, the hardest branch in the Lair. I'm nowhere near ready to clear it. Guarding the entrance is a giant amoeba. They're not too hard, but I'm sure there are other monsters guarding the stairs.



Yeah, there's another amoeba and a brown ooze. Brown oozes are like upgraded jellies. By the time you're ready for the Slime Pits, they'll be easy. I'm not, so I summoned some help.




Iron trolls are awesome.





I'm just clearing the last few parts of the level.



I found another artifact ("crystal amulet") under a fungus. I identified it and got my 1st level in spellcasting. That took a lot longer than usual.



-TELE is pretty bad, so don't rely on this amulet too much, if you find it.



These orange rats are last enemies on this level. Be careful around them. Orange rats can drain you, which causes you to lose exp. Unlike wights, these creatures drain you pretty often.



I managed to kill them all with losing much exp. Time to go downstairs.

[Dr.Feelgood]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If you notice some slight oddities in the screenshots, it's because I upgraded to the latest trunk build. It's one of my self-imposed rules that I broke while mildly inebriated. The others being "Don't play late at night" and of course "Don't play while drinking".



I dropped some spell books and headed downstairs. Great, more orange rats. 



I really don't like getting drained, so I summoned some help and went berserk as well.



The green fellow is just a regular troll. They regenerate quickly and hit really hard. The quality of Trog's allies depends on your piety. The less you have the less powerful the allies you get are. In fact, all of Trog's abilities rely entirely on piety, unlike other gods.




Trog gave me another sling for killing a slug. I barely have any skill with slings. 



Now that's a lot of food! How does anybody ever starve in this place?!



Oh no! A hydra! 



I weaken it with a bolt of draining.



And finished it off with a dagger of speed while going berserk.



Ooh. Another hydra!



It died exactly like the previous hydra. I think this is the 1st time I ran into more than one hydra on a level.



While killing this croc a fire drake wandered by. Fire drakes are small dragons that breathe fire, which burns your scrolls. They're one of the few fire monsters that can appear in the Lair. Obviously, you should drop your scrolls before fighting them. And kill them quickly, as getting blasted with fire is quite painful, even if they're not as powerful as regular dragons.



I managed to kill the fire drake before it could hit me.



Uh. I think I should get out of here.



They noticed me just before I could get out of their LOS. I dropped my scrolls and waited for the drakes to get closer. Then, I used berserk to kill them.



Poor thing. It has nowhere else to go. I did the decent thing and put it out of its misery.



These creatures like to eat your brain. Dumb characters should kill them asap.



I think using that wand was a bit overkill. I could've just stabbed it repeatedly.



Well, I guess it's time to go to the last floor!

[Dr.Feelgood]

Welcome back to Let's Play Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Here we are on the final level of the Lair. In 0.8, the Lair was reduced from 10 levels to 8. And there are new vaults added to the last floor to makes things more interesting and difficult.



I don't feel like fighting a black mamba right now, so I went elsewhere.



Here's another slow, but tough creature: a boulder beetle. None of these slow moving, vanilla bugs are very interesting.



I found a wand of enslavement, while poison-kiting this snail. And my evocations skill is now high enough to start IDing wand charges.



There are too many enemies in this area, so I backed off and killed the snail and snake that were following me.



I went to a secluded area and I decided to test a ring I found on the previous level. It turned out to be a +3 ring of intelligence. I dropped it and moved on.



I found a few scrolls and blink frogs in this area.



After grabbing the scrolls I started enslaving some frogs, so they could kill (or at least injure) each other.



That was easy.



I ran into these death yaks not too far from where I killed the frogs. Death yaks are about twice as dangerous as regular yaks. I consider them to be more dangerous than hydras. Try not to attract the attention of more than one of them at a time!



I lured one of the death yaks into a tunnel I created and killed it.



Trog gave me a short sword of protection for sacrificing the death yak's corpse. Protection gives +5 AC, so it's not that useful to me.



I didn't want to hang around death yaks, so I went north where I encountered blink frogs and elephants. I guess my choices are fighting annoying monsters or fighting hard monsters. I chose to go back and fight the death yaks.






Death yaks are not too difficult one-on-one. And they're worth a nice amount of experience. 



Oh boy, this is bad. I don't think I'd survive 3 slow turns next to this guy. I threw a dispersal dart at the death yak and enslaved the yak behind it.



While my meat shield held off the yaks I read a teleport scroll and waited.



I ended up in this place. To my left is a giant closed gate and I'm hiding from a sleeping boring beetle north from me. Boring beetles slowly dig through a level, so if you see this message: "You hear a grinding noise.", then a boring beetle is probably on your level.



I reached level 14! Maybe I'll be ready for a side branch soon.

[Dr.Feelgood]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This level is pretty big! Anyway, I ran into a spiny worm while going north. Spiny worms are actually very dangerous, despite being worms. Their bites are extremely painful and corrosive. I summoned an iron troll to kill it for me.



After killing the spiny worm my troll ran off and started attacking some death yaks.



My iron troll managed to kill a death yak quickly, but he's taking a lot of damage.



My troll died after killing the 2nd death yak. Now, I have an injured death yak following me.



I killed it and started to rest when this death yak appeared. I relied on my stealth to avoid its notice, until my slowness wore off. Then, I started shouting at the death yak. Another death yak was still around, so I had two following me!



I dug another tunnel and lured both of them in.



I killed the 1st one while berserk and critically injured the 2nd death yak. The death yak started to flee and couldn't finish it off before my berserk rage ended, so I pelted it with magic darts until it died.



I continued exploring and found a couple of items nearby. A ring and a potion of invisibility.



Man, these death yaks are everywhere!



A regular yak decided to attack me while I was berserk. It ended up getting devoured for its trouble.



While resting here I identified a ring of levitation. That should come in handy for the swamp.



I was going to leave this boring beetle alone, but it kept bothering me. 



I'm actually glad to run into a hydra. I'm tired of fighting death yaks.



I decided to try out my quickblade against the hydra. It was very effective. I started to rest, then another goddamn death yak appeared!



I still had enough energy to kill it while berserk. 



I headed west and encountered a pack of sheep and blink frogs. Yum!



I didn't feel comfortable fighting all these monsters at once, so I summoned so help. Hill giants are much stronger than ogres and regular trolls.



I couldn't let my berserker brother have all the fun, so I joined in!



My hill giant left after killing the elephants, but I didn't mind. I ate some chunks and rested. Then, I started sacrificing the rest of the corpses.




Trog gave me an artifact lajatang for some reason. Oh well.




Still, I identified it along with a few other items. I'm still waiting for a long blade, Trog!



This is the last enemy outside of that big vault on the bottom of the map.



Let's check it out!

[Dr.Feelgood]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Elephant statues...




Where are the elephants?



Maybe I'll find them in here.



Yep.



I remember fighting dire elephants the last time I had this branch end.




Nothing here.



I usually get the forest branch end, so I don't remember if there's a secret door around here.



I tried searching a few spots and gave up. Then, I used a magic mapping scroll, but nothing was revealed. 



Well, I'm done with this place for now. Time to go to the Orcish Mines!

[breadbocks]

Sweetness. On another note, how do you dig?

Anyways, do the Swamp first, or the Slime Pits if you feel daring.

[G-Flex]

Sweetness. On another note, how do you dig?

You cast Dig. Or use a wand of digging.


Dr. Feelgood: You might want to do something about the image spoilers. Even under spoilers, images still load, and there are very, very many and a decent size each.

[Soadreqm]

Well, it's a Let's Play thread based on images. Images are kind of unavoidable. Unless you feel like playing the ASCII version. Seriously, if your internet can't handle a fuckton of images being loaded, what are you doing here?

[tomas1297]

 I just saw this and read it from start to finish in one go. You're really good and now you made me want to try Dungeon Crawl again.