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[Mantonio]

In my first fort in .19 I embarked on what seemed to 3+ z levels of magnetite. Now I've deleted the save (genesis was updated) and I haven't found  any metals yet, that's without exploratory mining ofc, cause that would ruin my fort

Lucky! I'm got a fort with multiple deep metals, and I haven't found anything yet. I have no idea how deep is deep.

If this keeps up (or even worse, if world gen screwed me over and gave me useless metals) I'll have to use wooden crossbows.

[Chocolatemilkgod]

I wish that you could choose the scarcity of metals and such when you generate the world (like selecting savagery)

[Maklak]

I keep at least 5 magma forges set on repeat with ore stockpiles close. I need at least 1k metal to outfit my military and maybe another 1k for trap weapons. Add to that some chains, barrels, bins, goods from mandates, management errors, where ore lands in quantum dump next to mason's workshop, pipe sections, bolts, and I need at least 1k more.

Without 100% return from smelting, I'd say tahat 5k units of steel or bronze is barely adequate for a small fort. I could agree, that having small amounts of metal is challenging, and would make for a memorable fort, but that is not how I like to play. If anything, funobtanium fills the role of scarce metal for me, especially with obsidianizing magma. Having next to no metal would be even worse fort killer than having no trees. Yeah, so I guess I'm a newb wastefull with resources.

EDIT: I'm experimenting with civilian defense program, so I need about 10 pieces of metal, preferably masterwork, per every Dwarf. So far I can't keep up with the demand.

[Levi]

I'm fine with less metals.  I tended to import weapons/armor rather than forge them most of the time anyway.

[agatharchides]

You use over 1000 steel for your military? That's at least 50 dwarves worth.

[Hyndis]

You use over 1000 steel for your military? That's at least 50 dwarves worth.

Indeed it is. 

[Sarudak]

Honestly feeling you need 1k steel as a minimum is kinda ridiculous. Maybe that's ideal. But where is the fun in always having your ideal resources and more to spare?

[Rude]

I think I know where Toady is going with the metal scarcity.
steel is the price of gold. in .18 this didn't make sense since gold was as common as copper and you had to do *a lot* of work for steel. I think when the economy becomes real and fluid ( that is based on supply / demand and scarcity / utility) the scarcity of gold and the relative abundance of iron plus the work involved in steel will balance out so steel really will be worth about as much as gold (give or take for differences in world gen) both to the AI traders and to the player.

Also I think that he is trying to make trading more of a must rather than a sometimes easier alternative. or an atom smasher for people that don't want to use atom smashers. you can survive without wood, tho its harder, you should also be able to survive without trade, tho it should be just as hard.

And what's this complaining about dwarf fortress being to hard anymore? I thought that's why everyone played this: because mainstream gaming is about hand holding and telling you how to win. How is this any less fun than procedurally generated FB's that bash brains in with one kick and breath freezing death and bleed flesh rotting acid? Whatever happened to this

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Go play RunEscape and then come back here an tell us how genius Toady is.

You use over 1000 steel for your military? That's at least 50 dwarves worth.

Depends on whether the dwarfs in question are cheesy cheese makers or the legendary armorer that's using the steel.

[Hyndis]

Hard =/= Annoying.

There is a huge difference between something being challenging or difficult, or something just being annoying and tedious.

[ricree]

Any thoughts on running an effective military in a low metal environment?  So far, my leather wearing axedwarfs* have been slaughtered during seiges and ambushes.  I'd rather not go back to the bad old days of cowering behind a trap line, but it seems like the only option without access to good armor.



* generally around competent for most military skills

[Hyndis]

Without steel the only way to effectively fight goblins is using traps. This could be weapon traps, spike traps, or traps involving levers or other machines.

Otherwise you're going to be taking too many losses against the goblins fighting them with equal or inferior weaponry. The goblins get up to 80 new soldiers every year. You don't get 80 new dwarves. They win by attrition.

[Sarudak]

If you're using a civilian defense force consider giving the civies less equipment than your regulars. A mail shirt, breastplate, helm, and greaves is more than most conscripted forces would have ever had and with the weapon is only 5 bars per dwarf. Why must everything be masterwork?

EDIT: Maybe goblin numbers need to be toned down then. Where are they all coming from? And why?

[Bouchart]

Any thoughts on running an effective military in a low metal environment?  So far, my leather wearing axedwarfs* have been slaughtered during seiges and ambushes.  I'd rather not go back to the bad old days of cowering behind a trap line, but it seems like the only option without access to good armor.



* generally around competent for most military skills

Weaponized hens.

[Hyndis]

If you're using a civilian defense force consider giving the civies less equipment than your regulars. A mail shirt, breastplate, helm, and greaves is more than most conscripted forces would have ever had and with the weapon is only 5 bars per dwarf. Why must everything be masterwork?

EDIT: Maybe goblin numbers need to be toned down then. Where are they all coming from? And why?

Goblins should be coming from the entire goblin civilization. That means each goblin site is only sending maybe 5 goblins at you per year, but there are many sites that make up the goblin civilization.

Local populations are often several hundred if not approaching a thousand occupants. Its very easy for me to get 5 dwarven children going up to be peasants a year if I have 200+ dwarves in my fort. But I only have one fort, the goblins have dozens of towers all massing armies to send at me. This means it is impossible for any dwarven fort to wage a war of attrition with the goblins and win unless the dwarves have a massive advantage in kill ratios.

If its a dwarven civilization vs a goblin civilization then they are fighting on equal terms as both sides are using armies recruited from many sites rather than just one site.

[furlion]

I genned my first world and let the site finder go to work. I chose yes for shallow metal and multiple deep metals with flux. Found a very very large magnetite layer right at the surface and tons of dolomite for flux. Just on that 1 z-level I have found 300+ magnetite and I have only begun delving underneath it. So I would say that the new system is just more hit and miss then the old. If you do find a site with shallow metal, and flux, and the metal is the right kind, you are generally set for a while. That is just more "ifs" then in the previous version where you were guaranteed all those things just by the sheer amount of ore present in every embark site. I suggest if the site finder cannot find you a site that is suitable to some of the more esoteric players, haunted, savage, desert, glacier, etc, with a good shallow metal, then just go back a version. Really all you are missing is bees, and the massive storage of pots.