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[sambojin]

There seems to be a lot of whining about the scarcity of metals and metal-types in the new version (0.31.19) and I was wondering why this is so. In previous versions you got everything except flux on every map. And usually there was a bit of marble somewhere if you dug deep enough. That's everything, coal, copper, iron, the lot.

Now that people are having to deal with a metal shortage it seems that the world is caving in around them. But I like to think of it this way. Would you rather have a fort that you have to adapt to, struggling to overcome shortages and deficiencies in the site, making it a memorable and rewarding experience? Or just another DF deathmatch style fort, where you have everything and even steel and candy is worth essentially nothing?

So you can't make steel and only have copper? It sounds like you'll be whupping out the hammers and picks and going all commie on the goblins arses. No coal or lignite? Bring on the lumberjacks, with forest management being as important to you as the elves (except you'll still kill the trees along with the elves). No friggin metal at all? It's time to start making non-trap-traps and valuing every metal bar traded as more valuable than candy. If you can bring bronze making ores (which isn't even a given with the randomness of civ availability) then bloody well do so. Even fort wealth management is going to be a bit of an issue if you know you're still not ready for a titan attack.

Truthfully I tend to think the scarcity of metals is a good thing. I used to play with no aquifers and had no idea how to breach them for ages in DF. Then I learnt how to and it made the game all the more rewarding. It was a challenge to overcome and I did. Now I might not be able to rely on having steel axes, silver hammers and full candy armour. So it's time to learn how to do things a bit differently. It's a challenge, I'll overcome it. I'll also learn how to play the game properly and become more competent for doing so. I don't want a "you've got everything, you're playing on baby-mode" game. I want a memorable fort, where there were unique challenges and problems, where every fort is different. Even without the trading engine/caravan arc complete I think it's a good thing.

It'll make for funner games. It'll make for a better read for community games. It'll make for a good story, one that I'll remember. No one remembers the "they dug a bit, made some steel, killed shit and died an FPS death" games. Where would the captain be without it being friggin freezing, without undead roaming everywhere outside? Where would Boatmurdered be without the psychotic elephants and a butterfly doorstop?

What are your thoughts on the new value of metals and the challenges it poses?

[xaldin]

Bores me. After messing with .19 for bit I deleted it because I found that it wasn't fun. Finding an embark spot that wasn't just going to be infinitely tedious due to lack of materials is a pain in the backside to me. I'm uninterested in the type of 'fun' it is offering and don't particularly find the 'challenge' (I'd call it annoyance) all that interesting. So I'll stick with .18 which to some extent is a shame because I do like the additional craft options of .19, after some bugfixes I could see them as being pretty cool but they don't offset the annoyance factor currently. Maybe the next one, or maybe a few down the road will readjust it again. It is a game being developed along the road and I can be patient with what I have currently.

Also implying that anyone who isn't in agreement isn't playing 'the game properly' or that it is 'baby-mode' is not all that productive. Yes I'm glad you like it, that's good for you but get down off the damn high horse when you're talking. Nobody likes to crane their neck and its just asking for a figurative axe to the knees.

[digitCruncher]

I was looking forward to .19's metal shortage, returning mineral quantities back to pre-DF2010 levels. And I am enjoying it so far. I doubt I will stop enjoying it. Now each fort will be tailored to it's surroundings.

It is much more brutal, and that is what makes it fun. First .19 fort died, the first fort that has ever died since 2010, and that was due to the only metals being deep metals. Also, a massive elven ambush on the first Spring didn't help matters >.>

[Lamphare]

DF !!FUN!!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

never the less, if you somehow make alchemist workshop with balanced formulae, which still means you cannot get everything,
then it'd be nice

and finding embarking site is not terribly hard.
i tweaked the world gen parameter and generated 30 medium worlds, then i ended up with 5 really awesome sites, and a bunch of acceptable ones. essentially, magma, river or aquifer, flux, multiple deep and shallow metals, clay or sand and grassland or better. yeah~

[sambojin]

Didn't mean to come off all high and snooty. Just trying to show the nice variability of playstyles the new geology offers. Actually, it sort of enforces different playstyles for different sites.

I'm not that good a player and tend to run my forts with a fairly military mindset. I like the idea of "heirloom" armour being handed down from warrior to warrior because it's too damn valuable to leave on a rotting corpse. Others disagree and want a fully fledged golden statue of Armok with attendant pyramids. I don't, but that doesn't make them wrong.

It's kind of what the thread is about. Peoples opinions. They're not right or wrong, it's just their opinion of the new system. Be as high-horsey as you want here. Just don't grammar nazi or pointlessly flame. It's kind of what I want to read. Especially the kinds of challenges people expect to face and how they plan on overcoming them........

[agatharchides]

In my first world I asked for surface metals, clay and no aquifer. It turned up a decent jungle with hemetite, gold, clay and flux. And still a deep metal I've not yet found out. I'm not really complaining.

[Bouchart]

I haven't found any metals yet but I've still found a decent number of gems, so that seems to be intact.

[vassock]

What they need to do is allow the user to set population limits in the basic settings (like where you set low, medium, high for civilizations) so it's possible to get the titans/beasts/invasions and still have only ~10 population.

[sambojin]

If it doesn't say "shallow metal(s)" or "deep metal(s)" when choosing your embark site you probably won't have anything but a candy cluster somewhere.

Will you go for the candy, hope 10,000 randomized sharpness obsidian shortswords will see you through, bottle up and go atom-smashy/magma fountainy/drown-a-goblin or try something entirely different?

Or just choose a new site?

[Itsapaul]

Combat and generally screwing up something should be the hard parts, not your every day stuff.  I assume survey teams would know what the soil layers are before a caravan of MINING settlers is sent.  It might be realistic that a team's sent to see what the layers are, and if it's bad they abandon, but that doesn't make for a fun game.  I want to play the settlement that does find the awesome spot (unless I'm feeling extra hard mode-y and go on a glacier or something).

[Marshall Burns]

Yeah, I'm liking it so far. It's nice to have something to worry about, y'know? Maybe I'll finally get to see a tantrum spiral first-hand.

[gtmattz]

I, Personally am loving the changes.  I like the fact that I can pick a layer to build my housing and temples in that is free of interfering veins and clusters.  I know it takes a little more work to get a good site, but the game itself is improved imo.

[Lamphare]

it's more real

but i think somehow it'd be better if the 'filler stone' feature i saw in civilisation forge is implemented, so some amount of metal ore could spwan some where, reasonably without messing up *geology*.

[Ignosius]

I'm still pretty new to the game, and only played .18, but I think having less metals sounds great.

My very first fortress had none of the materials for making iron (I was still trying to figure out embarking), and I had to make do with outfitting my army in bronze. Every piece of iron or steel I got was either looted piece by piece after hard-fought battles with goblins or traded for with the caravans. It made metal feel really valuable, and had me on edge, knowing that my soldiers getting injured or killed in battle was a real possibility.

Since then, I've always embarked in new and exciting places. Untamed wilds, haunted oceans, glaciers, deserted islands... each one made me play differently to deal with the challenges that came with them.

If you have everything you need every time, it just becomes methodical. Embark, get food and water going, set up military, make steel armor and weapons, fight off ambushes, breach caverns, fight off FBs, etc. I guess that can be fun for some people, but I much prefer having to adapt to each new situation as it presents itself.

Unfortunately, I think I'll be sticking with .18 a bit longer. The new version sounds like it has some nasty bugs. I'll probably wait a bit longer before joining the Fun.

[deknegt]

I don't mind less metal around, i quite like it a lot infact.

But the lack of flux and cokeable materials are annoying me.
Seeing a pile of hematite standing on the stockpile mocking my furnace operators because there is no coal to be found and also no wood to be burned.

But i will cope with it and dig on.