Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[lumin]

One of the great things about DF is it's simple graphics.  They allow use to see what's going on on-screen with our own imaginations rather than with the interpretation of others.  It goes much further than this, however, since a modder need not worry about being a good artist or modeler to submit his creations.  New gameplay elements can be quickly and easily added to the raw folder as objects.

This flexibility comes at a price, however, since the theme and design of Dwarf Fortress belongs to Tarn Adams.  Adding in new elements must be at the discretion of the global setting as to not disrupt the overall feel of the world.  I want to get some feed-back on this from the communty if this would be appropriate.

Here's what I propose:

I thought it would be great to begin incorporating some of the ideas from the Dungeons and Dragons Monster Manual into the game.  The question is whether or not DF is a good place for the monsters like those of D&D to be.

To get a good idea about what the MM has to offer, read about it:

here

Of course, DF does not utilize even a fraction of the rules that D&D does for adjudicating combat.  And as such, should not even be used in DF.  DF should take some similar ideas for such creatures and integrate them into the DF system.

So the goal of this project would be to integrate some ideas, from the creatures from the SRD online to the raw folder using the general guidelines from this table:

here

Adding third-party objects to DF, normally, is not something that needs to be authorized.  I am going to start this project on my own and bring it to the wiki site anyway eventually.  I just thought it would be good to get some input and, perhaps, recruit others to help in the undertaking.

Eventually this could be extended to other books for even more ideas.  I think that there are too many good monster ideas out there for the world generated in DF to be restricted only to what there is in the vanilla version.  I'm sure Toady has plans for adding many more monsters to DF, but I think some of us could get started now using the Core Rulebooks as a guide and as a template for future upgrades to DF.

No need to re-invent the wheel if somebody has already laid some groundwork.

[ November 06, 2006: Message edited by: lumin ]

[karnot]

I personally dont care where the monsters hail from, be it D&D, or whatever. But what would be EXTREMELY neat - are monsters AND items descriptions. I just worship ADoM because of its very masterfully done monsters info. Its stylish to no end, look for example at the "rat" article.

However, to make descriptions for everything in the game is humongous load of work. Every little short sword, every stone, every fish bone. Some belletristic, some humorous, some scary...

Maybe we should open a contest to see who can write with an aproppriate style ? Of course, with Toady's permission.  

[lumin]

quote:But what would be EXTREMELY neat - are monsters AND items descriptions

I agree, but most roguelikes have the description feature visible when you look at or examine something.  For realistic purposes, the descriptions of every monster,item etc. should be put into a library at certain cities.  A library should be region specific too, so if a library is near a tundra region, it should only give descriptions of creatures/items that exist there.

Of course, Toady has already said he would put this in under Bloat185

[ November 06, 2006: Message edited by: lumin ]

[Shingo]

Um... Why would/should Toady shamelessly rip off the creatures from the D&D monster manual? Him and Three Toes seem to be perfectly capable of thinking up their own versions of things, etc.

[Draxxalon]

"Borrowing" creatures explicitly from the D&D monster manual directly is a pretty bad idea in a game.

Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro (who own WoTC now) have a rather large legal team... and they WILL take offence.

[lumin]

quote:Him and Three Toes seem to be perfectly capable of thinking up their own versions of things, etc.

To strictly copy things straight out of the MM would be wrong.  Besides there are already a lot of creatures from the D&D MM that exist in DF.  It's great for designers to come up with their own things, but to *never* use any hallmark fantasy creature just because "somebody else has used it" is not the right course either.  When people start playing a game and they see things completely unfamiliar, they can get turned off.

Using anything from the D&D universe and labeling as such is restricted under the Open Game Licence.  Just as if Toady had called his Goblin a D&D Goblin.  That doesn't mean you can't use the name under a different game, barring you don't make reference to D&D.

Anybody can sue anybody else, however, if they feel they have grounds for it.

[ November 06, 2006: Message edited by: lumin ]

[Draxxalon]

Keep in mind that there are "general fantasy" creatures (read: goblins, dragons, elves, dwarves, etc, etc), and then there are D&D specific creatures.

Content that exists under the open game license is available to use... but puts DF under the same open game license as a result, and makes "ownership" of the content a bit fuzzy (and lets others use + profit from your work).

I would image that Toady would like to own DF, in its entirety.   If they should one day decide "Hey, we've got a kickass game, lots of people love this, lets make some money and sell it", that they are able to do so.

Intellectual property is a tricky bit of business... and creating a game that you intend to "own" means steering clear of "open license" stuff.

Of course, if they don't intend to own DF, and never have any thoughts of maybe, possibly, trying to sell it...  go for it.

But personally, I think that's selling one's potential short.    It'd suck for them if DF turned into a massive hit (hey, we can hope, right?), but be unable to sell it (or have to give tons of cash away).

Now, as a user community... we can freely mod the files to add whatever creatures we want.   It's just not a good idea for Toady to do it.

[dav]

I would probably download them as an experiment, but I prefer the separate my games.  That is, D&D is fine as far as it goes, but it's not the only fantasy template, and certainly not the ultimate.

That said, more monsters is better.  I'd totally add twenty-six thousand creatures just to see what happens.

[Cosmonot]

I don't think Toady should officially get involved in ripping off other people's IP, but it's not that hard to do it yourself, so there's no reason you couldn't add umber hulks, displacer beasts and gelatinous cubes if you wanted.

[Mechanoid]

The idea of an Orc or Elf belongs to everyone, and can be used by anyone freely without fear of legal (re)action. However, to directly say that Dwarf Fortress's species of Goblin is the exact weight, height, and has as much tendency towards violence as D&D's species...

Would be theft.

However, if there is going to be one creature in DF that is directly taken from another game, then that creature should be the gelatinous cube.
[Why? It's an excellent way to distribute items within the area of an adventure mode cave or abandoned fortress]

[ November 07, 2006: Message edited by: Mechanoid ]

[Citizen of Erl]

I see no reason to steal from DnD. Especially given Toady seems to be doing a much better job than they do.

[X]

quote:Originally posted by Shingo:
<STRONG>Um... Why would/should Toady shamelessly rip off the creatures from the D&D monster manual? Him and Three Toes seem to be perfectly capable of thinking up their own versions of things, etc.</STRONG>

Yeah: rat men, bat men, ant men,  frog men, lizard men, snake men,  magma men, mud men, iron men, blizzard men, and... fire men.

X

[lumin]

quote:Yeah: rat men, bat men, ant men, frog men, lizard men, snake men, magma men, mud men, iron men, blizzard men, and... fire men.  

Haha!  That's what I mean!  Where's the originality?  I hope Toady has plans to at least flesh out the names of these critters in the future.  Why are we questioning his ethic of stealing from D&D?  I think he stole those names out of a Marvel Comic Book already. I'm just waiting for Spiderman to jump out at me in some deep, dark cave.

[Shingo]

I would rather hope that we could avoid criticism of Toady/Threetoes.... Due to the fact that instead of bumbling around with special names for creatures, etc.. they've been fleshing out more important areas of the game.

[lumin]

quote:I would rather hope that we could avoid criticism of Toady/Threetoes.... Due to the fact that instead of bumbling around with special names for creatures, etc.. they've been fleshing out more important areas of the game.  

The Fauna of a fantasy world is EVERY bit as important as any other gaming aspect.  Maybe, those things aren't a priority now, but that doesn't make them less important, as you say.