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[NW_Kohaku]

Yeah, back in the same porcelain suggestion I linked, we were talking about making either microcline or orthoclase a necessary part of the glaze reactions, although just sand would also work.

Of course, now microcline is rediculously rare, and Toady doesn't really seem to like using small fractions of an item, so I left that part out of it.

Glazes (and for that matter, enamels, I need to mod enamels while I'm at it... and lacquers) are basically made of glass, with metal impurities that give the glass some color.  You can think of glazes and enamels as stained glass that are put on ceramics or metals, repsecitvely.

You can do crazy stuff with enamels, the Russian Tzars were especially nuts with the stuff:
http://www.artfinding.com/Artwork/Tablewares-Containers/Pavel-Ovchinnikov/Russian-enamel-tankard/6015.html
http://webrevolutionary.com/price/Silver-Gilt-Enamel-Russian-Egg-Swan-84_140499807078.html
http://www.russianantiquestore.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CU1TGDX01

Of course, there are other uses for microcline and orthoclase as well, you can also grind them into fertilizers...

[Cotes]

I don't ore veins being much rarer, but dfhack shows me that the last half-dozen sites I tried had only one kind of ore veins (typically one of the more useless ones) that are all located in very specific layers. I can't see this being a good thing no matter how deep in the realism-camp you are.  Finding metals like iron should be bigger deal and require a lot more work, but making it completely impossible to find them in the vast majority of embarks just plain sucks. One-ore per site with layers upon layers of monotone diorite just makes mining feel really pointless, unexciting and not fun.

I realize this release is very much WIP, but I don't get the people going "yay!" at this particular adjustment. Oh well, waiting for .20

[Sirdrake]

the last 3 forts ive done are all having hematite in them

[forsaken1111]

I don't ore veins being much rarer, but dfhack shows me that the last half-dozen sites I tried had only one kind of ore veins (typically one of the more useless ones) that are all located in very specific layers. I can't see this being a good thing no matter how deep in the realism-camp you are.  Finding metals like iron should be bigger deal and require a lot more work, but making it completely impossible to find them in the vast majority of embarks just plain sucks. One-ore per site with layers upon layers of monotone diorite just makes mining feel really pointless, unexciting and not fun.

I realize this release is very much WIP, but I don't get the people going "yay!" at this particular adjustment. Oh well, waiting for .20

But this IS realistic. It is hard to find ore deposits in real life, and they're (mostly) only found in certain regions and locations. Most places on the earth, if you dug straight down, you'd hit soil then water then lots of rock, or just soil and rock.

[Cotes]

I don't ore veins being much rarer, but dfhack shows me that the last half-dozen sites I tried had only one kind of ore veins (typically one of the more useless ones) that are all located in very specific layers. I can't see this being a good thing no matter how deep in the realism-camp you are.  Finding metals like iron should be bigger deal and require a lot more work, but making it completely impossible to find them in the vast majority of embarks just plain sucks. One-ore per site with layers upon layers of monotone diorite just makes mining feel really pointless, unexciting and not fun.

I realize this release is very much WIP, but I don't get the people going "yay!" at this particular adjustment. Oh well, waiting for .20

But this IS realistic. It is hard to find ore deposits in real life, and they're (mostly) only found in certain regions and locations. Most places on the earth, if you dug straight down, you'd hit soil then water then lots of rock, or just soil and rock.

Which would matter if this was just a mining simulator and not a game that is supposed to be enjoyable to play.

You have to make some compromises with realism for the sake of fun

[forsaken1111]

I don't ore veins being much rarer, but dfhack shows me that the last half-dozen sites I tried had only one kind of ore veins (typically one of the more useless ones) that are all located in very specific layers. I can't see this being a good thing no matter how deep in the realism-camp you are.  Finding metals like iron should be bigger deal and require a lot more work, but making it completely impossible to find them in the vast majority of embarks just plain sucks. One-ore per site with layers upon layers of monotone diorite just makes mining feel really pointless, unexciting and not fun.

I realize this release is very much WIP, but I don't get the people going "yay!" at this particular adjustment. Oh well, waiting for .20

But this IS realistic. It is hard to find ore deposits in real life, and they're (mostly) only found in certain regions and locations. Most places on the earth, if you dug straight down, you'd hit soil then water then lots of rock, or just soil and rock.

Which would matter if this was just a mining simulator and not a game that is supposed to be enjoyable to play.

You have to make some compromises with realism for the sake of fun

He's already said he will make options to cover different gameplay wants. I'm trying to understand just what people are still whining about here.

You know this is not how it will be, you know that toady will likely make the mineral scarcity optional, and you know that some people like the scarcity. What exactly are you still upset about?

[Sirdrake]

Dont Bitch about it This is only the FIRST part of the update Toady will only be testing it

[Cotes]

I don't ore veins being much rarer, but dfhack shows me that the last half-dozen sites I tried had only one kind of ore veins (typically one of the more useless ones) that are all located in very specific layers. I can't see this being a good thing no matter how deep in the realism-camp you are.  Finding metals like iron should be bigger deal and require a lot more work, but making it completely impossible to find them in the vast majority of embarks just plain sucks. One-ore per site with layers upon layers of monotone diorite just makes mining feel really pointless, unexciting and not fun.

I realize this release is very much WIP, but I don't get the people going "yay!" at this particular adjustment. Oh well, waiting for .20

But this IS realistic. It is hard to find ore deposits in real life, and they're (mostly) only found in certain regions and locations. Most places on the earth, if you dug straight down, you'd hit soil then water then lots of rock, or just soil and rock.

Which would matter if this was just a mining simulator and not a game that is supposed to be enjoyable to play.

You have to make some compromises with realism for the sake of fun

He's already said he will make options to cover different gameplay wants. I'm trying to understand just what people are still whining about here.

You know this is not how it will be, you know that toady will likely make the mineral scarcity optional, and you know that some people like the scarcity. What exactly are you still upset about?

Read the first post in the quote tree more carefully.

[forsaken1111]

Read the first post in the quote tree more carefully.

Yes, you don't get why people are saying 'yay' about the current scarcity. Some people, like me, actually like it.

[Cotes]

Read the first post in the quote tree more carefully.

Yes, you don't get why people are saying 'yay' about the current scarcity. Some people, like me, actually like it.

I'd like it if it didn't eliminate all ore from all but one specific set of layers. There's just no point in exploring in this version - You find one layer with a shit-ton of galena and you'll already know that's all you will ever find and only in the nearest dozen z-levels.

It's much more fun trying to find one of the rare ore veins you know is just somewhere in there with a big mining operation than just pick alloys from a list of traded goods.

[forsaken1111]

I'd like it if it didn't eliminate all ore from all but one specific set of layers. There's just no point in exploring in this version - You find one layer with a shit-ton of galena and you'll already know that's all you will ever find and only in the nearest dozen z-levels.

It's much more fun trying to find one of the rare ore veins you know is just somewhere in there with a big mining operation than just picking alloys from a list of traded goods.

So your point is that you want more than one type of metal in an embark area? You can do that, quite easily. I have a fort in .19 which has iron, copper, nickle and tin ore all in the same area.

Find a place where several biomes overlap, where each of them have shallow and deep metals.

Or you could whine about it on the forum and wait for .20

[NW_Kohaku]

But this IS realistic. It is hard to find ore deposits in real life, and they're (mostly) only found in certain regions and locations. Most places on the earth, if you dug straight down, you'd hit soil then water then lots of rock, or just soil and rock.

He's already said he will make options to cover different gameplay wants. I'm trying to understand just what people are still whining about here.

You know this is not how it will be, you know that toady will likely make the mineral scarcity optional, and you know that some people like the scarcity. What exactly are you still upset about?

You'd probably find at least things like feldspar or variations in the stone, however.  Right now, you have the overwhelming majority of embarks not even having feldspars (I.E. microcline and orthoclase) and they make up the majority of stones on the earth.

There shouldn't be places like entire mountain ranges taking up a quarter of the world that have absolutely nothing in them - no soil, no vegetation, no metals, not even common semi-precious gems like quartz or even microcline (and only in some places, a layer of flux stone, generally marble).  Absolutely nothing but a flat stack of layers (excepting caverns if you leave them in... and we all know how realistic THOSE are) all the way down to the mantle.  In an area taking up more landmass than the oceans in a worldmap.  Completely and utterly barren of anything but the same layer stones.

I guarantee you that if you start digging down long enough into a mountainside, maybe you wouldn't find gold nuggets or whatever, but eventually, you'd be able to find a rock that looks slightly different from the rocks around it in some way.

Yes, not all embarks are bad, but there shouldn't be such massive areas with such an absolute dearth of anything inside them.

In other words, I'm "whining" because I want my microcline back.

[forsaken1111]

Your microcline is coming back.

[Cotes]

I'd like it if it didn't eliminate all ore from all but one specific set of layers. There's just no point in exploring in this version - You find one layer with a shit-ton of galena and you'll already know that's all you will ever find and only in the nearest dozen z-levels.

It's much more fun trying to find one of the rare ore veins you know is just somewhere in there with a big mining operation than just picking alloys from a list of traded goods.

So your point is that you want more than one type of metal in an embark area? You can do that, quite easily. I have a fort in .19 which has iron, copper, nickle and tin ore all in the same area.

Find a place where several biomes overlap, where each of them have shallow and deep metals.

Or you could whine about it on the forum and wait for .20

Considering I often have a specific kind of location in mind, adding "several biomes all with metals tag" into the list of requirements gets overbearing pretty fast. Also, I have tried several overlapping biome sites, most of the time getting one or two kind of ores regardless. You have no way of knowing at embark if you get a site where you aren't completely screwed with ore availability and you most of the time are.
It takes far too long to realize you have embarked on a really boring site for mining.

Also, what you suggests still doesn't remove the "find one vein, you have found them all" problem I mentioned. You won't have any incentive to explore further and you'll know there's no point in trying to find anything else.  That's a much bigger issue than not having more than couple ore types. The thing is that this released did not make ore rarer. You still find tons of it, it's just only of one type and all in the same place. That spells pretty darn boring to me.

[forsaken1111]

Okay, we get it. You do not like the way it is in .19

Don't play .19!

It will not be this way when toady has finished fleshing out the scarcity numbers and works out the trade. You're freaking out over nothing. Play .18 and be happy, or wait. Or deal with the single ore vein issue and play anyway. It isn't as bad as you're making it out.