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[nenjin]

Now tell me, what does the church do, how does it hurt innocent and defenseless masses? Why must it be stopped? And what makes it better for satire and gameplay than a salvation camp?

1. They are a part of the political establishment that wants to foist their values on others regardless of those who believe differently.
2. Their mandate is to convert everyone to their way of thinking, for their own good.
3. They use religion to convince the poor, the vulnerable and the elderly to empty their pocket books. See: Televangelists with gold rings.
4. They're (historically) guilty of much, much worse.
5. The Catholic Church is (currently) knee deep in child molestation and priestly malfeasance scandals.
6. The Camps to Ungay Kids.

Ect....

Again, you're ok going after religion, just not its symbol it seems. Every thing in LCS is a conservative analog, a darker, more ridiculous, more offensive version of itself. I see the church as no different. You can wear a priest's robes to interrogate people for crying out loud.

And how exactly does going and shooting up the Conservative Gentlemen's Club striking a "real" blow for Liberalism? Because it's the CCS hideout right? Even if you didn't know that?

Sorry, I don't agree that everything in game is perfectly justified. It doesn't need to be. The satire, maybe, but the sites themselves range from "oh yeah, that totally makes sense" to "what the hell does this have to do with liberalism, again?" People praying in the church, that's sacrosanct, but shooting the park up while it's full of innocent people, that's perfectly ok? Breaking into the houses of nice peaceful people being nice and peaceful, sensible and justified?  Even if you don't think so, it's made possible by the game.

As for motives....in Arch Conservative America, there is no religious pluralism, all citizens tithe to the Church establishment, and clergy men can serve in the Legislature. Laws that with disagree with Church doctrine are immediately shot down. In Elite Liberal America, churches receive no public funds, laws are scrutinized and rejected for any religious content that might intrude on the beliefs of others and organizations which hold the faith and trust of billions (and their dollars) are carefully monitored by the government for honesty and treated the same as every other group in the country, without special preference.

[Kay12]

I don't have anything against "attacking" religion in LCS, I just find that a church is a bad way to attack it. Instead of attacking the conservative values, you're just killing people. In a church, there are only a few "true" conservatives preaching to others, who are just victims from even the liberal viewpoint (if they aren't, religion isn't oppressive and shouldn't be attacked at all). It's like trying to undermine Cable news by killing everyone who watches them.

I disagree with your numbered points though.

1. A church is not a part of the political establishment. It's a clubhouse for religious people. Would be a whole different thing if it was the Federal Council of Clerics or something but you'd only find those in C+ societies anyway. The camp would be better in this aspect, as they've been criticized in real life for receiving undue funding and they actually involve pushing values on other people.

2. A church is not a place where people are converted. People who go to church are already religious to some extent. A salvation camp would be better in this aspect.

3. This is true, but I don't think the church is the center of this. Don't televangelists usually stay clear of the "traditional" churches?

4. and 5. This is a pretty good reason to include some religious satire in the game, but I still think it doesn't highlight why a church should be the site to raid.

6. Including the conversion therapy in the salvation camp would of course be good.


EDIT: Oh, and I don't see the church as some unifying symbol of Christian faith. Like I said before, I consider it to be a clubhouse, a meeting place for the religious. I have no ideological opposition for including it, only that I don't think it makes sense.

[nenjin]

I just want to say I'm not opposed to the camp idea. The church is the truer symbol of the whole thing though.

1. A church is not a part of the political establishment. It's a clubhouse for religious people. Would be a whole different thing if it was the Federal Council of Clerics or something but you'd only find those in C+ societies anyway. The camp would be better in this aspect, as they've been criticized in real life for receiving undue funding and they actually involve pushing values on other people.

Completely disagree. Organized religion pays for lobbyists closely tied to both parties IRL, dictates the morality of a substantial demographic that wields enormous political clout, has played a pivotal part in many important issues that have faced Americans, from abortion to civil rights, and throughout time has been more powerful and enduring than any government.

To say it's not a political organization, and that churches aren't nodes in that political organization, is just flat out wrong. Saying a church isn't a political organization is like saying a Wall Street Firm with a billion dollar bankroll isn't a political organization as well, or have political interests. It's just not correct.

The Vatican is its own country, for His sake. How is that not in some way political?

The Church has been criticized plenty for trying (and succeeding) to influence law makers to legislate in favor of their morality. Blue Laws, for example. Gay Marriage. Abortions. Gambling Laws. Public Monuments. The very words written into our laws. ("Under God.")

These are all very real issues. Sure Bootcamp is a nice one, but there are a plethora of things that can all be summed by "Church" as a symbol for liberals to attack. To be honest, you're not stopping anything in LCS other than a few imprisoned animals or enslaved workers. You're attacking symbols of the establishment, and the Church is just another part of the skyline in that struggle.

A church is not a place where people are converted. People who go to church are already religious to some extent. A salvation camp would be better in this aspect.

No, it's where people drink juice and eat cake before they go out trying to convert people. (And do all the wonderful and good things religious people do as well. Yes, this is all starting to make me feel a little guilty.)

And point in fact. My Grandfather was a pastor. I spent 14 to 15 Christmases in his church, without my permission being sought. He straight up told me his goal was to convert me, my brother and my cousin. So again, I disagree that churches aren't where it happens. People have to go to Church to even really experience organized religion. Many do not walk through the door as converts.

Don't televangelists usually stay clear of the "traditional" churches?

They build their own.

But on a more local level, I have 6 - 7 christian churches less than a mile from my house, all on the main street near by. Double that number if you go out two miles. Two of them, that are less than a mile from my house, own land equal to or greater than that owned by a Walmart store, and several more fit that description. I live in a town of less than 300,000 people. Total churches in town? 40, 50?

Churches are practically a franchise in my part of the country. So maybe my perspective is different. But I imagine it takes a hell of a lot of money to pay the rent on those things, and just because they're not on TV doesn't make their schpiel any less questionable.

And really, this is LCS we're talking about. We're not talking about your neighborhood church. That's what the whole term mega-church even applies to. The modern day Cathedrals that get thrown up costing millions to build. The kind of church that is not about spirituality, but about money and getting lots of it. The kind that fund De-Gaying camps as a side-venture.

This is a pretty good reason to include some religious satire in the game, but I still think it doesn't highlight why a church should be the site to raid.

Depends on how extreme of a case is presented. In the unlikely and highly unpleasant scenario of a church where child molestation goes on unchecked, yeah, I can see attacking that site as a liberal course of action. That's a little too extreme though, even for LCS.

To re-iterate, this isn't "your" church I'm talking about. This is the Arch-Conservative Nightmare Church of Woe. Shutting them down brings light to their corruption, their misanthropic world view and their manipulation of the people to line their pockets and secure their power.

[Kay12]

Well, how 'bout a compromise - religious camp with a huge, decorated McCathedral in the center and surrounded by crappy housing for the involuntary inhabitants. Population would be current religious stereotypes and a couple of news ones (crusaders and witch hunters!) in addition to imprisoned children and the occasional office worked picking their kids up. Activities would include taking over the show at the Cathedral, wrecking conversion therapy classes and replacing Bibles with The Origin of Species and Slaughterhouse Five. The cathedral could be several floors high and house some sort of religious council at the top of the marble tower. This would, in my opinion, portray the evils of conservative fanaticism quite well.

[nenjin]

Works for me. Should be pretty cute writing up a name generator for it.

[Kay12]

If I remember correctly I suggested a list for possible names a long ago. Something along the lines of "Federal Academy for Moral Education" when C+, C-L would be either <name> Bible Academy or Camp <Christian term here>. On L+, the site could turn into a legal monastery that is completely unsupported by the Government, or turn into some fundamentalist terrorist training camp for regaining its past glory. The appearance of the site should get less decorate as secularism grows.

I must check the files that control site creation, and see if I can add some more site decoration options. Fountains, carpets, and decorated walls would be awesome outside the religious compound as well.

[nenjin]

That's got a nice dystopian ring to it. What struck me first was the more overtly religious stuff, like the Cathedral of the Flaming Virgin or Church of Vengeful Apostle, or Church of the Holy Wraith. Some wrath of god-flavored stuff.

[Kay12]

Also, in C+ religious society loitering will become "witchcraft".

[Svirfneblim]

I won't even read the whole argument now, but really, I have absolutely nothing against religion in real life.
LCS is a joke and the idea is that you do a lot of *evil* things in pursuit of good. It's also a satire on a certain type of left-wing extremism and if SLA would oppose churches, it makes sense for LCS to.

Obviously, shooting up a church is an awful thing no matter the politics involved. The only time in recent history it happened was a 'liberal'(as in left-wing and tolerant to minorities) church being shot up.

However for the purpose of satire, I think a stereotypical church full of fundamentalist priests would make sense. If people think a Jesus Camp spoof would be less hurtful to their feelings, I'm fine with that too. It definitely would give opportunity to have kids you can free from opression and possibly be much more sprawling and scary than a mere church.

The reason I suggested a church is based on first and foremost lack of religious-themed buildings in the game, second the fact that such a building could influence religious freedom, abortion law and homosexual rights issues, all of these not having much or any buildings associated with them.

How would people feel about a church called specifically to be a conservative one - one worshipping a 'Conservative Jesus with a gun' like in the satire cartoons? It could have it's own spoofy and silly religious doctrine like the church of Biff in Sealab, thus at the same time poking more fun at the stereotypes and making it clear the game isn't about killing any real religious group.

[Kay12]

As I said before, I don't have anything against a church being shot up (in a video game), but I think some Jesus Camp / Academy of Moral Righteousness is better for the satire. However, I think it's better to have both in one - having a dirty and stinky camp surround a lavish McCathedral points out a flaw or two in certain aspects of religion. I find it odd that my local church has hundreds of really expensive golden lamps (inside information claims they cost ~1 million dollars apiece) and yet they advocate charity over excessive luxury.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

I was actually thinking of having something like a Televangelist Megachurch downtown, and a separate high security camp on the outskirts.

If the camp is full of kids, I would design it as both a "Jesus Camp" turning kids into an Army of God, and an ex-gay conversion camp. I would be very careful with its presentation of children.

1. There are guards with submachine guns, shotguns. They will stop you at the front entrance with a checkpoint; "I'm sorry sir/madam, we can't allow you to visit the kids in mid-education."
2. There is a fairly common enemy only present inside the camp that has an archconservative/persuasion attack that involves quoting from the Bible or making other religious statements. Camp Educator or something like that.
3. The kids are all moderate/liberal. This is where you go to stop kids from being turned into Conservatives, not where you go to shoot kids. They all have bonus Wisdom and 1-2 levels of Religion.
4. You can't recruit any of the kids; they refuse to listen to something disturbing.
5. You can "liberate" the Liberal kids, but they don't join your party, they just run away, with unique text about crying and escaping from the camp. You can't liberate the moderates; they're already turned to the point where they don't want to leave.

Documents can be found showing abusive actions toward the kids, racist or Islamophobic brainwashing, and "disposal" of people who came to investigate the camp. Actions there affect the religion and gay rights issues.

For the church, the front can appear quite innocent, but in the back, in the restricted area, are hidden the trappings of mega-wealth and corruption. There is a TV Studio similar to the Cable News station. Publishable documents can be found showing misappropriated donations, millions in "profits", sponsorship of deadly attacks on abortion doctors, and -- if the CCS has appeared at any point in the game -- direct sponsorship of the CCS. Loot includes expensive jewelery, expensive suits, things like that, plus some additional items added, like solid gold Jesus figurines.

Near the back, there is a staircase up, into a tower going as high as the game allows (6 floors at the moment, I believe), with a relatively small room complex connecting off of each floor. The top floor contains an office with a unique Televangelist, using rules similar to the CEO (if turned non-sleeper Liberal or dead, he respawns; if kidnapping is detected, he's in the news; if a sleeper, he's highly effective). He has a powerful persuasion attack, but is unarmed, so can be taken hostage if he is alone. If the alarm goes up on site, he doesn't vanish like the CEO, but he does end up flanked by armed guards who will prevent him from being taken hostage as long as they're standing. He can be dragged into the TV Studio at gunpoint to significantly increase the impact of hijacking it. He can be seduced fairly easily.

The church affects the religion and abortion issues.

[Kay12]

For the camp, there should be some teacher NPC with a persuasion attack but fairly low persuasion and charisma. Some kind of fiendish alteration between "God is cool, come on join me in the song, now one two three four..." and "if you don't want to learn with us, you'll burn in HELLFIRE after Peter shoots your brains out".

[Dwarven WMD]

Perhaps at C+ religion the church turns into some kind of evil cultist temple?
Because when I imagine what a C+ place of worship looks like, I don't see a monastery with people dressed in priest clothes roaming around, screaming excerpts from a bible they made up to control you, I see a god damned unholy looking place full of insane acolytes who chant incoherent things about everything from Lovecraftian beings to Steve Jobs as they move around.
To me, that would make a lot more sense for mind control. By more sense, I mean it seems more like what conservatives would develop.

Then, buried deep in some catacombs somewhere in the temple is this much more insane leader of the cult with high persuasion, religion, and wisdom. Kidnapping and converting him would be futile, as he's become so obsessed with his own cultist beliefs combined with conservative beliefs and controlled the minds of so many people that it's impossible to break him. Torture would display something like:

Code: [Select]

Dwarven Weapon beats The Insane Acolyte Leader, screaming "Wal-mart! Donald Trump! Jeff Foxsworthy!"
The Insane Acolyte leader let's out a chilling laugh and screams an incoherent statement about someone named Azeroth. You can't understand anything else except for him repeating that name a few times.
And as an added bonus, attempting to kill him could have a possibility of causing him to turn into some kind of conservative demon.

Code: [Select]

The Insane Acolyte Leader chants something impossible to distinguish the language of.
The Insane Acolyte Leader let's out a fell laugh before transforming into a Giant Genetic Monstrosity.
Liberal Crime Squad freezes for a second, before simultaneously running out of the room screaming "JESUS CHRIST!"
...We're getting religion involved. There are more far-fetched ideas than this.

[Kay12]

Personally, I think that it's far easier to make funny stuff out of theocracy than out of religion in general. And if I'm to imagine the most C+ religious situation, it wouldn't be that there would be humongously large churches or cultist temples. They aren't needed anymore. EVERYWHERE is their church. You CAN and WILL be asked to confess your sins anywhere.

[nenjin]

But mega-churches and cultists are more fun (although I don't really get the whole demonic angel of C+ religion. That makes it clownish instead of, in some ways, believably scary.)