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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.19 Released  (Read 171511 times)

G-Flex

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.19 Released
« Reply #225 on: February 17, 2011, 10:08:11 am »

I'm just saying, I'd rather discuss what could make the feature better (which is good for everyone), rather than automatically jump to the conclusion that it should just be made optional instead (which isn't really good for much of anyone, especially  not the people who actually like where the features are headed and what they're trying to accomplish).
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Taricus

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.19 Released
« Reply #226 on: February 17, 2011, 10:10:52 am »

It's really the current distribution of the minerals that has everyone up in arms, such as not having access to iron and such from traders.
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Torham

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.19 Released
« Reply #227 on: February 17, 2011, 10:11:57 am »

making any kind of meal (simple, lavish) takes only 2 types of food. Even the high quality ones. Also, when the cook takes 2 batches of eggs into the kitchen ( this could be around 20 eggs) the kitchen becomes *CLT* and it takes ages to make the meal. The kitchen is fine if he makes food form for example 15 dog meat.
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agatharchides

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.19 Released
« Reply #228 on: February 17, 2011, 10:15:24 am »

Two? I've seen roasts made of nothing but whip vine flour before. But this and kitchen clutter aren't exactly new.  :P
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Haspen

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.19 Released
« Reply #229 on: February 17, 2011, 10:19:27 am »

The ore system is indeed poorly implemented.

I believe it was to make one place abundant and suited for being a mine, while other having worthless rocks and occasional gems, scaring the civilization away.

Sadly, .19 have the system so implemented that not only every place sucks as a potential 'mine' site, but also the worthless vein minerals (cinnabar, cobaltite) count as vein metals, or I at least think so, with what I have experienced on embark.

Fortunately, I'm the person that rarely works with metal until I have large, established dwarven fort :P
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.19 Released
« Reply #230 on: February 17, 2011, 10:28:43 am »

The people who want info on where they embark shouldn't play this really. I like it better this way, and if you dont then here's an option for you. Play this one, or play another.
Just because you guys want something doesn't mean others do, and no, OPTIONALITY is not an option.

This isn't a very helpful attitude, as you're basically implying, whether you mean to or not, "play the way I play, or don't play at all" or "stop having fun any way I don't condone you having fun".

Rather, G-Flex is going about this a little bit better:

Things that drastically and fundamentally change the game are often least suitable for options, because it's that much more difficult for the game to support all options involved if they change the game that much.

Having a "make this just like 31.18" init option is a bad idea because it means that you break a fundamental system of the game.  Either one option is "playing with half the game", or Toady has to develop two entirely different game types for both options.

What would really be nice is if Toady actually made those raws where you can set the rarity or availability of some of the metals actually work, so that we could just adjust that part of the raws, and make platinum veins only appear in small clusters in 1% of the world's surface, while iron deposits occupy 60% or the like. 

That way, you don't have to use some sort of "break the world" init option, it's just a natural continuation of the raw settings and a dynamic geology simulation.

Basically, Toady probably is already planning on this, since you'll notice the whole "3d veins" thing is his third release package, and he has that whole dummied-out place in the raws for determining rarity, and that much of what both sides want are probably going to become available a half dozen versions down the road.

You can't assume the game will always stay as it is, or that the way it is now represents what it is trying to be. Just saying.

The game needs to be refined, and I think what we're seeing is an incomplete, rough change in how the game is designed that will be refined back towards being more realistic, but which just breaks some things for right now.

All that I've already said aside, it's still worth lobbying Toady to at least get an indicator of what the top couple layers are, and what maybe at least one shallow metal, since those should be pretty obvious.  Right now, the only way to tell whether I'll be digging into igneous stone or not before I embark is to go to legends mode and make it spit out the detailed vulcanism map. 

"It's typically worth checking before you irrevocably commit yourself to spending the rest of your life mining that worthless ore vein." This reminds me of my visit to a 16 th century Hematite mining site last year. The foreman was showing us the tools of the trade and some exploration shatfs. He said that this one shaft was started by one bloke, he was working on it for 20 years, died and his son picked up the chisel and hammer and continued on the shaft. After ten more years they did eventually find a vein, but they had no way to tell if there ever will be anything there.

That was a guy who was a prospector... There certainly were prospectors, but that's not really what dwarves necessarily have to be.  They could be a team sent to set up a mining outpost after someone found some iron ore or gold nuggets panning the river.

The ore system is indeed poorly implemented.

I believe it was to make one place abundant and suited for being a mine, while other having worthless rocks and occasional gems, scaring the civilization away.

Sadly, .19 have the system so implemented that not only every place sucks as a potential 'mine' site, but also the worthless vein minerals (cinnabar, cobaltite) count as vein metals, or I at least think so, with what I have experienced on embark.

Fortunately, I'm the person that rarely works with metal until I have large, established dwarven fort :P

This is a huge one, here - cobaltite was an extremely valuable trade resource in the real world throughout much of history, giving places like Afghanistan their wealth and their heightened trade status.

We need to be able to specifically set out to find Lapis Lazuli (for making Ultramarine pigment, a pigment so rare and valuable only royalty could afford it), or cobaltite, or sand or kaolinite, or some of the other valuable rare items on the planet.

Yes, I know it's not all that realistic that we could have "prospectors" already out there for us every single time in every single place, but we shouldn't be forced to just put our hand over our eyes, point to a random spot on the map, and hope we got a good spot.  If we're going to be setting up a trading fort, we need to be able to know there's something there worth trading before we dedicate our games to them, otherwise we're forced to just embark and quit until we manage to find a spot with the resources we wanted.

"Realistically", we would be able to visit or leave a place after finding or not finding things we want, and "realistically", we would have access to rumors of ore veins, and be able to see that one city is obviously mining something, and that maybe we could move a little further along the cliff face and set up a mine where we are likely to find similar minerals.  "Realistically", many of the gold mining operations in the American Gold Rush started because a few lone explorers happened to find gold literally just sitting as a nugget out on a creek bed.  If nobody picks it up, the materials are just lying out there, and the eroded mountain faces give a good clue as to what's inside those mountains.
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Ledi

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.19 Released
« Reply #231 on: February 17, 2011, 10:37:47 am »

Thankyou, NW_Kohaku, for your wonderfully thought out and expressed post. I agree with everything that you have just said. The rarity editing you have pointed out would work better than having to develop two types of gameplay.

I think part of the problem with the metals was the timing of the feature. If it had been cut down once all the trade routes had been established, things may have gone differently.

I would still like to be able to tell what I'm embarking on top of though. Even if we just have to assume that there have been explorers, scouts and prospectors who have sifted through the wilderness before us. Or... they looked at the mountain and went "....Wait, that's magnetite. Strike the earth!"
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Taricus

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.19 Released
« Reply #232 on: February 17, 2011, 10:39:39 am »

It could be an INIT option for the site finder: Detailed or vague.
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Torham

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.19 Released
« Reply #233 on: February 17, 2011, 10:44:49 am »

I have my chickens in a enclosure. I have flagged one for slaughter( the young roosters are fighting and one of them was already pecked to death) and now the butcher is dragging the chick to the butchery and another dwarf is trying to pen it. They are fighting over it each trying to pull it in opposite direction.

Update: I had to lock the door to the pen, then the dwarf trying to throw it back gave up, allowing the butcher to do his dirty work.
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thvaz

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.19 Released
« Reply #234 on: February 17, 2011, 11:01:22 am »



I have my chickens in a enclosure. I have flagged one for slaughter( the young roosters are fighting and one of them was already pecked to death) and now the butcher is dragging the chick to the butchery and another dwarf is trying to pen it. They are fighting over it each trying to pull it in opposite direction.

Update: I had to lock the door to the pen, then the dwarf trying to throw it back gave up, allowing the butcher to do his dirty work.


Rosters fight each other? Amazing!
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Ultimuh

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.19 Released
« Reply #235 on: February 17, 2011, 11:06:13 am »

This release made me think.. will nobles suddenly start mandating the construction of eggshell thrones?
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Psieye

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.19 Released
« Reply #236 on: February 17, 2011, 11:07:33 am »

So to sum up... Toady and Threetoe decided making the playerbase wait a whole year AGAIN would be detrimental so they made a rough first release. We do not have full awareness of their vision or motivation for this huge shift in ore scarcity or the site finding information reduction. Some people have concerns that this is the final state of the game or is approaching it. Some people are miffed that for a game where a lot of modding is possible via the Raws, the ability to change the scarcity of ores is not working (the tags are there, but they're not working). A few people are taking up presumptuous assumptions about other people. A lot more assumptions are going on about what Toady's view is.

Well, this kind of discussion is necessary and the efforts to keep it civilised are much appreciated. I'm not quite sure why I wrote this - I probably want to make the point "let's wait for Toady to wake up, he needs his rest right now". He fixed the sprawl issue in time, trust him to fix this issue in time.
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Vorthon

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.19 Released
« Reply #237 on: February 17, 2011, 11:08:22 am »

I modded in furniture bees which make furniture out of their wax.
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plisskin

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.19 Released
« Reply #238 on: February 17, 2011, 11:17:14 am »

I modded in furniture bees which make furniture out of their wax.

That's madness.

Quote
A few people are taking up presumptuous assumptions about other people. A lot more assumptions are going on about what Toady's view is.

I'm fairly new to DF, and I keep getting surprised by how many people are complaining about changes and bugs between releases when the game is at such an early stage of development and has no staff except for one guy.

Once a game is declared finished it is open season, but . . . we're not even beta-testers for this game yet yet. We are practically playing his design notes. With any other dev we wouldn't even have the right to play the game at this stage.

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This release made me think.. will nobles suddenly start mandating the construction of eggshell thrones?

I'd gladly build them some eggshell rooms over steel menacing spikes.
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Vorthon

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.19 Released
« Reply #239 on: February 17, 2011, 11:19:16 am »

I modded in furniture bees which make furniture out of their wax.

That's madness.
But wax furniture! It's awesome!
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