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[thvaz]

I'm surprised how many people seem giddy at the thought of DF being harder.  I'm playing .31.18 right now and it does seem that the availability of things like native gold and native aluminum in the ground seems a bit ridiculous, but iron ores are not anywhere near as rare as those here on planet Earth.  It seems perfectly reasonable (if not entirely realistic) to expect any embark to either have iron ore or at least the ingredients to make bronze. Without either, you're kind of screwed.  Either that, or there should be some way to tell where useful ores exist pre-embark, as would be evidenced by prospecting. 

My current .18 fort completely lacks coal/lignite, but I can deal with that.  A complete lack of iron ore would've killed it.

Iron is very common on our planet, but it's not everywhere, at least as a mineral that could be used by a roughly medieval technology.

[Bigf00t]

W.
O.
W.

Congratulations Toady, you have done it again! I cannot wait to try this update. I'll be sure to give you my opinion then!

Sounds fantastic, keep up the good work. 

[Dude_Jebawe]

I came three times just reading that. This is seriously awesome stuff.

[Torham]

Is it just me or do the stockpiles miss the earthenware  material selection. Also I have so far failed in using large earthenware(and stoneware) pots for anything. They just make them and stick them in stockpile. when i glazed them they leave them in kiln, not using them for anything or even stockpiling them. Brewer says "needs empty barrels".

[Squidpalace]

I am very, very happy with the update Toady, no qualms with the mineral scarcity. Though I understand some people would prefer a "creative mode".

Has anyone else had issues with wildlife being vicious? I made a huge underground tree farm in Z level -1 and a bunch of smelly muskox got in. One of them kicked my doctor in the elbow until he passed out then jammed his skull through his brain...

[zach2good]

Ive noticed that magma forges are requiring fuel for their reactions. I'm pretty sure they didn't in .18, but then again I always had pooloads of coal.

I've removed [fuel] from my steel and pig iron reactions, hopefully that wont ruin the game by making normal forges able to pump out steel for next to free?

[Thief^]

Steel and pig iron have always needed fuel as an ingredient. It adds carbon, one of the elements in steel.

[wwWraith]

Ive noticed that magma forges are requiring fuel for their reactions. I'm pretty sure they didn't in .18, but then again I always had pooloads of coal.

I've removed [fuel] from my steel and pig iron reactions, hopefully that wont ruin the game by making normal forges able to pump out steel for next to free?

Magma forge uses 1 unit of coke, non-magma - 2. It's component of chemical reaction, not just fuel.


Decided to break through aquifer with cave-in method. My carpenter decided to sleep on the ready-to-fall site.
"A section of cavern has collapses!" - it's ok
"The Carpenter is caught in a cloud of boiling magma!" O_o there were no magma, just common aquifer, water, mist... No wounds from heat, too. Possibly bug?

[Thundercraft]

You know, I think you're a little misdirected in getting so heated at G-Flex.  You seem to agree with the things I've said, and G-Flex's stance has little difference from my own.

We agree on some things, but (apparently) we disagree on others. Although, I must admit you and G-Flex both have good arguments about the viability of Mega Projects. I'll have to reevaluate my position on that.

Aye, I'm having fun by not playing .19. I don't feel like taking a month to get the site I was only spending 5 days on in .18.

And ore scarcity may be a hot topic, but there's also the much vaguer embark screen now too. 'deep metal' to some people has turned out to be one 6-tile vein of unspecified origin. Since the actual maps haven't changed, just how they're being presented, I do not feel that it is too unreasonable to ask for an option of 'precise' or 'vague' embark details.

Ore scarcity would do better in the worldgen parameters (e.g. Ore_Quantify 1-100x or somesuch). I'm concerned as well by the fact that I'm limited to a 3x3 embark due to performance - I could easily be crippled due to lack of minerals while someone who can embark on a 7x7 would have much more area in which ore could be found (with the same dwarven population). The abundance of ore in .18 made small embarks possible, but without some form of scaling I think there is a chance we will be forced to take early FPS death and a larger embark simply so we can have those extra potential ore deposits.

I agree. And I worry about these things. (Particularly with minerals vs. small embarks and FPS issues.) Which is part of why I'm so passionate about this.

I embarked on a place with no metals I've been able to find at all (deep metals on the map indicator)...

And you really do not have a problem with this?

When the goblins come, I'll find my iron source even if I can't find metal on the map

That sounds like a stopgap measure.
Question: In .19 does that bug still exist where all forged items, including armor and weapons, only require 1 bar of metal? Sooner or later, Toady will get this bug fixed. Thereafter, it should be much like it was in earlier versions of DF. Forged items should require 2 or 3 bars of metal (usually 3). Also, recycling should yield far less than 100% and Goblinite should not be nearly as useful. What then?

...having to take multiple throws of the dice that take an hour or so to check the results of to find a roll we like (functionally, savescumming) is just tedium.  Maybe you'll enjoy it the first few times you do it, but I suspect it will get boring if you have to make five aborted forts before you find a site you like every time you try to play a new fort by the third or fourth fort you play.

Just repeatedly embarking over and over and over again to get a lucky roll of the dice isn't real difficulty, it's just sacrficing hours of my life at the alter of the Random Number God until it shines down some favor.

Yes. And tedium + boredom can be the suicide of interest in a game. If we wanted more of that we would volunteer for overtime at work.

I'm surprised how many people seem giddy at the thought of DF being harder.

I can't seem to figure that out, myself.

I'm playing .31.18 right now and it does seem that the availability of things like native gold and native aluminum in the ground seems a bit ridiculous, but iron ores are not anywhere near as rare as those here on planet Earth.

Actually... you seem to be misinformed about the availability of iron on planet Earth.

Wikipedia > Iron

It is the most common element in the whole planet Earth, forming much of Earth's outer and inner core, and it is the fourth most common element in the Earth's crust.

It is produced in abundance as a result of fusion in high-mass stars, where the production of nickel-56 (which decays to iron) is the last nuclear fusion reaction that is exothermic, becoming the last element to be produced before collapse of a supernova leads to events that scatter the precursor radionuclides of iron into space.

So, iron is not only the most abundant element on Earth and the fourth most common in the Earth's crust (the two most common being oxygen and aluminum), but it also happens to be one of the most common elements in the Universe. Astronomical observations confirm this. And so did NASA probes, including the Viking lander which studied the rocks of Mars. (What do you suppose gives Mars it's blood-red color?) In fact, scientists theorize that the cores of most planets consist almost entirely of iron and nickel. (Mostly iron.)

On planets with a molten core, like Earth, that iron is a liquid. (See the Structure of the Earth for more details.) Magma on Earth can have a variety of compositions and the lava that erupts on the surface contains much more silicates and other minerals than iron. But it usually contains at least a small amount of iron.

This means, in a game universe built on laws of physics similar to our own, iron should be one of the most common elements on most planets. And since dwarves can dig down to the magma sea, there should always be some iron ores available near this bottom layer. If nothing else, they should be able to extract small amounts of iron from magma itself.

If there is any scarcity of viable iron ores on the surface of planet Earth today, it is due solely to the expense and difficulty of mining and extracting the iron from said ores. And that would be due to much of the easy deposits on the surface having already been mined out over the course of over a century of commercial exploitation. (The cheapest method being strip mining ores near the surface.) Further, there's plenty of iron ore which is not commercially exploited because it would take too much fuel and/or processing to be economically viable.

Heck, I live on a farm in the Midwest and there are not any iron ore mines nearby. (There are a few towns nearby known for their lead mines of historical significance.) But we do have small outcroppings and rocks bearing iron ore on the surface here. It's not economical enough for a mine. But if I was so determined, I could easily smelt them down and make something out of iron. Similarly, one can easily spot small veins of iron ore along the local highways where the road crew blasted a hillside for the construction.

Make no mistake: The scarcity of iron in .19 is neither realistic, nor reflective of the geology of Earth.

My current .18 fort completely lacks coal/lignite, but I can deal with that.  A complete lack of iron ore would've killed it.

Exactly. Especially in evil or savage biomes, iron is pretty important to fort survivability. One can sometimes make do with alternative materials, Goblinite or trade, but that does not always work out. Even then, it can take a lot of effort and luck.

[G-Flex]

This means, in a game universe built on laws of physics similar to our own, iron should be one of the most common elements on most planets. And since dwarves can dig down to the magma sea, there should always be some iron ores available near this bottom layer. If nothing else, they should be able to extract small amounts of iron from magma itself.

You seem to think that all sources of iron atoms are equal. They're not. The quality of an ore was extremely important in the medieval period, and the thought of dwarves being able to extract pure iron from magma is just silly.

Yes, iron's fairly abundant. No, not all sources of it are available to people operating circa-1350 smelting operations. They required relatively pure and high-quality ore, and didn't have mass spectrometers and centrifuges and complex chemical means by which to isolate substances.

Like you said, there are sources of iron today that aren't economically viable, never mind back then, when methods by which to isolate substances didn't really exist in the modern sense.

[agatharchides]

The amount of Fe in the earth's crust, what is viable for modern mining and what was viable for medieval mining are frankly all different kettles of fish. Modern mines want a lot of ore in one spot near the surface, and it doesn't have to be that good. Medieval miners needed ore very close to the surface and a lot of wood, since all smelting was done with charcoal. Setting up a bloomery isn't that hard though, so they could move around a bit. Of course, DF uses coke which wasn't done on a large scale until the 18thc and magma which obviously never happened. And dwarves can dig down more easily than ever the moderns. So historical accuracy is probably null here anyway.

 In gameplay terms, I think a few tweaks to trade and some alluvial or trace deposits work fine. If you could get 50-60 iron a year from caravans, that should cover your military needs and more. We don't really need every embark to be the Mesabi range with infinite iron for defense to be viable and I look forward to trade being meaningful.

[Thundercraft]

The quality of an ore was extremely important in the medieval period, and the thought of dwarves being able to extract pure iron from magma is just silly.

You may think it is silly. But I do not.

...not all sources of it are available to people operating circa-1350 smelting operations.

Who says that the dwarves in Dwarf Fortress utilize the same smelting technology of Earth humans in the mid 14'th century? How could we even begin to compare dwarven magma furnaces to Medieval smelting technology? As stated before and by others on other threads, dwarven steel seems nearly equivalent to modern high-grade steel. Clearly, they have both superior craftsmanship skills and geological and metal smithing expertise compared with Medieval Europe or Asia.

They required relatively pure and high-quality ore, and didn't have mass spectrometers and centrifuges and complex chemical means by which to isolate substances.

Unless the manufacture of iron has drastically changed in .19, the sources of iron should still be Hematite, Magnetite, and Limonite. But DF does not specify how much impurities these ores actually contain. In real life, however, the percentage of iron and amount of contaminants can vary considerably.

Truth be told, DF should actually contain additional iron ores in order to be a more realistic simulation:

Wikipedia > Iron ore

Prior to the industrial revolution, most iron was obtained from widely available goethite or bog ore, for example during the American Revolution and the Napoleonic wars. Prehistoric societies used laterite as a source of iron ore. Historically, much of the iron ore utilized by industrialized societies has been mined from predominantly hematite deposits with grades in excess of 60% Fe. These deposits are commonly referred to as "direct shipping ores" or "natural ores". Increasing iron ore demand, coupled with the depletion of high-grade hematite ores in the United States, after World War II led to development of lower-grade iron ore sources, principally the utilization of taconite [containing siderite] in North America.

Like you said, there are sources of iron today that aren't economically viable, never mind back then, when methods by which to isolate substances didn't really exist in the modern sense.

The economics of the iron industry on Earth today may not be very applicable to a fictional planet where dwarves live in some sort of blend of communal socialism and monarchy. There are many factors involved in said economic viability. Additionally, I question your knowledge of iron ore processing and the necessity to use modern methods.

One of the difficulties in processing certain types of "commercially unviable" ores is the extra energy, time and effort it would require. The burning of coke and other fuels to process iron ore into iron and steel alloys can be very expensive. And there is little incentive to repeatedly processing low quality, impure ores if higher quality ores are available. However, if other sources are not available and the need is desperate enough, it can be done... even without centrifuges and modern high technology! (It is not simulated in-game, but I suspect that dwarves might be clever enough to use the natural magnetism of magnetite to aid in either purifying or at least isolating quality ore.)

Consider, too, that with magma forges fuel is no longer an issue. If it came down to it, they could repeatedly process impure ores until pure iron is derived. And even with regular forges that burn fuel, that should not be a big issue for fortresses well supplied with trees, Tower-caps, coal, or lignite.

[NW_Kohaku]

I embarked on a place with no metals I've been able to find at all (deep metals on the map indicator)...

And you really do not have a problem with this?

When the goblins come, I'll find my iron source even if I can't find metal on the map

That sounds like a stopgap measure.
Question: In .19 does that bug still exist where all forged items, including armor and weapons, only require 1 bar of metal? Sooner or later, Toady will get this bug fixed. Thereafter, it should be much like it was in earlier versions of DF. Forged items should require 2 or 3 bars of metal (usually 3). Also, recycling should yield far less than 100% and Goblinite should not be nearly as useful. What then?

Well, I've never really liked the military and combat that much, anyway.  This just gives me more reason not to even bother with military.  Maybe once Toady gets around to fixing the major problems with the military, I'll reconsider.

I'll just not use a military, and rely entirely on engineering solutions to my military problems.  I don't wall myself completely off... I just make sure there's only a couple enterances, both of which involve running past bridge-a-pults that dump invaders into cave croc pits or long halls of wooden spikes on repeat or ballistas behind battlements or drowning traps or cave-ins as a final line of defense.  Maybe some crossbowmen from protected crossbow towers, although I'm not sure wooden crossbow bolts are worthwhile.

Besides, no matter how little iron goblins yield, there will always be more goblins wearing more iron. 

So, iron is not only the most abundant element on Earth and the fourth most common in the Earth's crust (the two most common being oxygen and aluminum), but it also happens to be one of the most common elements in the Universe. Astronomical observations confirm this. And so did NASA probes, including the Viking lander which studied the rocks of Mars. (What do you suppose gives Mars it's blood-red color?) In fact, scientists theorize that the cores of most planets consist almost entirely of iron and nickel. (Mostly iron.)

You're forgetting that Aluminum is the most abundant metallic element in the Earth's crust.  And it's almost completely useless to dwarves in forms like bauxite and microcline and granite and rubies because that aluminum is in chemical forms that their technology is incapable of purifying into pure metal.

Iron, the element, is a part of almost any form of dirt or stone in the Earth's soil. The darker the stone, or the redder the dirt (from oxides - rust - of iron), the greater its iron content.  That doesn't mean you can just smelt dirt and get iron, however.  Nor that you can just boil obsidian in a pot and get iron in pure form from it.

With all that said, I do think it absurd and silly the way that all metals are currently being treated exactly equal, with platinum mines being essentially as productive as iron mines, and generally having metal this uncommon is a less than ideal implementation of the system, but it's also one I'm sure won't last more than one or two versions before the current system is scrapped in favor of a better system.

the thought of dwarves being able to extract pure iron from magma is just silly.

Actually, I've kind of thought about how we could implement something like this.

Having magma flows that we let cool into igneous extrusive stone types in controlled methods should occasionally produce some of the same ore types that will occur in igneous extrusive layers, at least theoretically. 

The trick would be allowing cooling to be slow enough that it isn't a glass like obsidian, as the different metal's different cooling points would allow one metal to crystalize and settle or be removed from the magma while the other metals are still above their boiling points.  That's something pretty extreme as a method of ore mining, but it's at least hypothetically possible. 

I have no idea how long the process would need to take in order to actually separate the metals, however.  The process may take hundreds of years or the like, and be almost completely inviable because of that.

[tps12]

Wikipedia > Iron ore

Increasing iron ore demand, coupled with the depletion of high-grade hematite ores in the United States, after World War II led to development of lower-grade iron ore sources, principally the utilization of taconite.

We had roast pork for dinner last night, so it's taconite in my house tonight as well.

[Mazonas]

Just a word of advice guys.

I set out a few nest boxes for my chickens.  Chickens then got ravaged by wild geese, wild ducks and wild turkeys that proceeded to instantly shoot out 15 eggs each into the boxes, then spent the rest of the time maniacally darting back and forth around the box attacking anything that went near.  I had to make an emergency military to go take them out.

Apparently they were holding that in for a while