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[Jim Groovester]

Might as well state my scumpicks...
Supercharazad, Who began the day reserved and cautious, And then became drastically "Excited" because I asked him about it...


He Is probably just trying to be better and I am ruining for him, or a newb that is Satisfied with being scum who ,When accused of being scum because of it, Became A tolerable degree of "Excited" to make it look like he is playing town by playing the way he usually is...

I can state without qualification that in a Beginner's Mafia game no player is going to be able to know their meta so well that they can act like town while advancing their scum goals.

You suspect that Supercharazad is trying to act like his normal self to appear town. Are you an expert on his meta? If you are, then you can state what's different about what he's doing.

Otherwise, he's acting like himself. In which case, you don't have much of a reason to vote for him.

I vote for shorten because I'm getting bored of waiting for something to happen, and some others seem to be thinking about it too.

Object to Shorten. There's still discussion going. As long as that's happening there's no reason to cut the day short.

Jim: Ah, alright, waiting to vote seems scummy, I'll remember that. My argument to vote SaintDraze is that almost everything he does seems scummy to me, I may be wrong, but I'm fairly certain that he is scum. (Example, voting me so as I couldn't vote him without an OMGUS accusation)

Everything he does seeming scummy to you is not a good reason. You need to list out your reasons in explicit detail. If your reasons are good, nobody will take issue with them. If your reasons are very good, you might convince people that your target is scum.

So list your reasons in explicit detail. Every single one. If you can't list them out, then you need to seriously reconsider why you think your target is scum.

Because, if you vote some right after they vote you, it looks like an OMGUS, even when it isn't. Another reason I asked for shorten is because 72 hours seems a bit long for a single day.

OMGUS is a worthless accusation in most cases. If you have good reasons, it's not an OMGUS. So don't worry about that.

To be perfectly honest, I wasn't sure about joining this game in the first place, mainly because I'm terrible at judging people and tend to trust people unless they're acting ridiculously obvious. now that I've played for a bit, it seems I was right on my initial assessment. I can't be careful about my votes, cus waiting and not voting is a scummy action that only helps the mafia, I can't vote for the person who's acting, if not suspicious, at least very stupid, because that's bandwagoning, and everybody else has already explained in intricate detail what he's been doing that's suspicious, so any reasons I do give will be piggybacking on somebody else's, and I can't find faults with people's posts enough to interrogate them because I'm not that kind of person, so I guess I can either get replaced with the next person in line, or get voted out, cus I can't figure out a way I can play this game.

You should worry less about tiptoeing through the minefield of scumtells and just do everything you can think of to catch scum. In fact, you shouldn't worry about tiptoeing through the minefield of scumtells at all. Just do what you need to do to catch scum.

Seriously. Fuck tiptoeing around scumtells. If you do that and just go find scum you will be town and there's nothing anybody will be able to say otherwise.

This is an important enough lesson that I should probably stress this. More often than not new players learn the lesson that they should be trying to avoid scum tells. This is the absolute wrong lesson to take away from this game. You should be finding scum.

As you get more and more experienced you'll get better at not dropping scum tells in the first place. Mafia is a feedback loop in that regard; what people accuse you of being scummy for you will learn and avoid in the future. But do not, do not, avoid scum tells at the cost of finding scum. That's scummy and will get you lynched anywhere outside of here.

[Rose]

that's exactly the thing, I'm too trusting to find scum. The best I can manage is voting for somebody that I don't have sufficient reason to vote for, because it's better that a townie get's lynched than a scum goes free.

[Supercharazad]

To be honest, my reasons for voting SaintDraze are:

I'm pretty sure he tried to make an OMGUS defense (ooh, is that a real mafia term? It could be a viable strategy)
He randomly insults me (I'm guessing he wants me to make mistakes, and angry people do)
He seems to be subtly trying to get me lynched (See 1, see 2, his random votes on me ect.)

As I said before, I'm fairly certain that he is scum.

[Jim Groovester]

that's exactly the thing, I'm too trusting to find scum. The best I can manage is voting for somebody that I don't have sufficient reason to vote for, because it's better that a townie get's lynched than a scum goes free.

Then try unwarranted paranoia and see if that helps.

Go reread the thread. As you read through it, if there's anything that makes you wonder, ask the person about it. It can be as simple as 'why did you pick x for that question'.

Note: This is specific advice to Japa only. Do not be unnecessarily paranoid or I will have something to say about it.

To be honest,

So, were you not being honest before?

I'm pretty sure he tried to make an OMGUS defense (ooh, is that a real mafia term? It could be a viable strategy)

I have no idea what you're talking about.

He randomly insults me (I'm guessing he wants me to make mistakes, and angry people do)

Sticks and stones, my friend. If you think he's trying to make you angry so that you'll make a mistake, do you think he's being malicious about it?

He seems to be subtly trying to get me lynched (See 1, see 2, his random votes on me ect.)

Don't throw that etcetera at me. If you've got &cetera you're not listing, you should list it.

[Toaster]

Saint:

Japa and toaster Know that I am town even though I am being really scummy...
That's kinda suspicious... :\
Toaster& Japa
Kindly state, Or restate if you already said your reason, why you decided not to vote me?

I never said I knew you were town.  I'm more interested in hunting others than jumping on the bandwagon right now.


Super:
Shortening is a bad idea, especially if there are lots of posts going on, especially if it's D1.  I can't think of a situation that would call for a shorten on D1.

OMGUS Defense:  I don't think this logic holds.  It becomes circular logic (WIFOM) because you're assuming that person is going to vote you in the first place.

Further, you didn't answer my questions to you.

[You need to take the time to address any questions directed at you.  Refusal to cooperate is a very anti-town move, as is any form of stifling discussion (AKA shortens at bad times.)]


Japa:  Painiac said he did not want to shorten the day- not that he did.  Did you realize this?

Also, you need to state your reasoning behind votes, even if you think they are obvious.

[As far as being unsure goes, Jim beat me to the punch again.  If anything anyone does doesn't appear completely sound and logical, question them about it.  If you've got nothing, reread the thread.  If you still have nothing, pick a person and read their posts.  If you get nothing on that, pick another person, etc.

Worry less about protecting your image and more about finding scum.  If you get mislynched, it sucks, but if you've contributed a lot, you've helped the team.  Remember, you don't have to be alive to win.]

[Supercharazad]

I would have still voted him, if he had not voted me.

Jim, be OMGUS defense, I mean voting someone, to make them reconsider voting you because they are afraid of being called out for an OMGUS.

[SaintDraze]

Well I don't really mind if we shorten.
It seems the only thing that will prove my innocence...

Super probably isn't scum since he seems over eager to lynch me...
scum wouldn't want to be very visible when they are trying get someone lynched
Makes them look bad when the lynched flips townie...

I don't maliciously insult...

Unvote supercharazad, Vote SaintDraze

The scummiest person so far is me...
I am still clueless about who is being scummy...


Now Japa and toaster are the only ones that aren't voting me...
Sigh.... -_-
Toaster You don't Really need to use vote to pressure You can use FoS.

What would your plan be once I flip Town?

[Supercharazad]

Well I don't really mind if we shorten.
It seems the only thing that will prove my innocence...

Super probably isn't scum since he seems over eager to lynch me...
scum wouldn't want to be very visible when they are trying get someone lynched
Makes them look bad when the lynched flips townie...

I don't maliciously insult...

Unvote supercharazad, Vote SaintDraze

The scummiest person so far is me...
I am still clueless about who is being scummy...


Now Japa and toaster are the only ones that aren't voting me...
Sigh.... -_-
Toaster You don't Really need to use vote to pressure You can use FoS.

What would your plan be once I flip Town?

I'm not over-eager to lynch you. I do however want you lynched.

You do know that voting yourself is a scumtell?

[Jim Groovester]

Unvote supercharazad, Vote SaintDraze

NEVER DO THIS EVER.

There is no reason to ever vote yourself.

Super probably isn't scum since he seems over eager to lynch me...
scum wouldn't want to be very visible when they are trying get someone lynched
Makes them look bad when the lynched flips townie...

This doesn't matter as much as you think it does. That a player is pushing a lynch doesn't make him town or scum. It's his reasons that matter. Do you think Supercharazad's reasons for pushing your lynch are townlike?

You're making too many assumptions.

Toaster You don't Really need to use vote to pressure You can use FoS.

Who are the ICs? Maybe you should listen to them instead of telling them what to do.

I would have still voted him, if he had not voted me.

Jim, be OMGUS defense, I mean voting someone, to make them reconsider voting you because they are afraid of being called out for an OMGUS.

If you're talking about SaintDraze's first post, that was in the RVS. Random votes tend to be meaningless and mostly to get attention.

I'm almost completely certain that preemptive OMGUS defense is not what was going on. Similarly, you will never, ever have to worry about doing that because nobody votes anybody to stop them from voting them.

That wasn't all I asked you about.

[Supercharazad]

I would have still voted him, if he had not voted me.

Jim, be OMGUS defense, I mean voting someone, to make them reconsider voting you because they are afraid of being called out for an OMGUS.

If you're talking about SaintDraze's first post, that was in the RVS. Random votes tend to be meaningless and mostly to get attention.

I'm almost completely certain that preemptive OMGUS defense is not what was going on. Similarly, you will never, ever have to worry about doing that because nobody votes anybody to stop them from voting them.

That wasn't all I asked you about.

I didn't mean his first post. I meant the post right before I voted him.

The "to be honest" part was mindless fluff, I probably shouldn't have kept it in there.
I do believe he is being malicious about trying to make me angry, but we'll see on monday.

[Toaster]

Saint:

scum wouldn't want to be very visible when they are trying get someone lynched
Makes them look bad when the lynched flips townie...

You can't assume that.  You're going into WIFOM again.

Unvote supercharazad, Vote SaintDraze

Game rules:

• Never underestimate your importance, and always play to win!

Not only is giving up not fun, but you're hurting your own team when you do it.

Toaster You don't Really need to use vote to pressure You can use FoS.

Why do you keep insisting I vote you over Super?  You're drawing a strong connection between you two.  It's not beyond assumption that this whole thing was staged to make the "loser" look townie.

[Yes, I dipped into WIFOM there.  But sometimes it's hard to avoid.]

[Tyberix]

And again D1 drowns the same way.  ( i feel like i said this in each game i played  )

SaintDraze Voting yourself is only showing that you don't care about voting and scumhunt, it's not in any way helping you unless you want to be lynched. Who do you find most scummy and who do you have least clear view on ? Ask both of them at least one serious question so i could say that you're not purposefully stopping others from finding scum!

Japa Do you think lynching SaintDraze would bring much information ?

Toaster In what situation do you think calling for shorten is justified ?

I will not ask to shorten the day, and I have nothing really to say regarding the fact that while I have no idea who to vote for, SaintDraze  seems the most likeley.

To be perfectly honest, I wasn't sure about joining this game in the first place, mainly because I'm terrible at judging people and tend to trust people unless they're acting ridiculously obvious. now that I've played for a bit, it seems I was right on my initial assessment. I can't be careful about my votes, cus waiting and not voting is a scummy action that only helps the mafia, I can't vote for the person who's acting, if not suspicious, at least very stupid, because that's bandwagoning, and everybody else has already explained in intricate detail what he's been doing that's suspicious, so any reasons I do give will be piggybacking on somebody else's, and I can't find faults with people's posts enough to interrogate them because I'm not that kind of person, so I guess I can either get replaced with the next person in line, or get voted out, cus I can't figure out a way I can play this game.

also, 72 hours is a fine day length, because some of us have jobs and can't spend all day on a forum investigating.

Well, i feel the same way on D1 so don't take too much into no-real suspect,in my opinion D1 most times is just hunting for little (or bigger) slips so first lynch isn't completely random. Unvote

Painiac Do you think looking for scum teamwork on D1 is effective ? How would you recognize one ?

[Toaster]

Tyberix:  Not many.  Usually it'd be something like an uncontested cop claim where the claim target is clearly giving up, and everyone has stopped talking- this happens more later in the game.  If there's any real discussion going on, or the target is making a credible case for his defense with people having doubts, then a shorten is bad.

It's a case by case basis.  When in doubt, don't shorten.

[Supercharazad]

Saint:

scum wouldn't want to be very visible when they are trying get someone lynched
Makes them look bad when the lynched flips townie...

You can't assume that.  You're going into WIFOM again.

Unvote supercharazad, Vote SaintDraze

Game rules:

• Never underestimate your importance, and always play to win!

Not only is giving up not fun, but you're hurting your own team when you do it.

Toaster You don't Really need to use vote to pressure You can use FoS.

Why do you keep insisting I vote you over Super?  You're drawing a strong connection between you two.  It's not beyond assumption that this whole thing was staged to make the "loser" look townie.

[Yes, I dipped into WIFOM there.  But sometimes it's hard to avoid.]

Oh bother, I think he's trying to make me look like his buddy :/

SaintDraze, that doesn't work, because if I were your buddy, you'd want to rotect me, not give me away.

Stop trying to get me lynched, it isn't working.

de-shorten vote

[Painiac]

Painiac Do you think looking for scum teamwork on D1 is effective ? How would you recognize one ?

Uuugh, I am thinking about answer to this myself...

First point: it is really WIFOM-related thing. If he is scum, then that other player can be also, but if he's not, then what? It's better to avoid such complex situations. Basic scumhunt is basic, and it should be your main way of approaching scum. Well, if you are really confident of someone being scum - ideally copcheck - then you have some ground for looking elsewhere. In case of copcheck, you may want to check interactions of other players with your scum, instead shouting out information when you get it. Players may try throwing him under bus, joining bandwagon. Most important thing, they will want often to defend their scummates, including chainsawing. But yes, unless your scum will die and show his alignment, leave WIFOM alone.

SaintDraze, that doesn't work, because if I were your buddy, you'd want to rotect me, not give me away.

Throwing your scumbuddy under bus is viable strategy to prove innocense after lynch. I saw 5 scums doing this day by day, only to prove their unscuminnes. It was sad thing to look at.