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Author Topic: What you DONT want in DF?  (Read 30061 times)

metime00

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Re: What you DONT want in DF?
« Reply #135 on: February 22, 2011, 05:47:26 pm »

You know what I realy don't want to change? The music. Or atleast the general theme of the music, if Toady wants to pull out a guitar and add a few more songs, I would love that! But I do not want any metal, or tecno, or any other large shift in paradine from the current music.

This so much that I'm trying to make a full soundtrack soundsense-like mod!
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Nikov

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Re: What you DONT want in DF?
« Reply #136 on: February 22, 2011, 05:54:23 pm »

Gonna second ventilation. I build them for show and for smoke/miasma dispersal only. Sewers sound like fungineering, though.
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LilGunmanX

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Re: What you DONT want in DF?
« Reply #137 on: February 22, 2011, 11:51:34 pm »

Magic. Please, just no magic. EVER. LEAVE IT HOW IT IS PLEASE.

Also: Air. Please never make oxygen an issue outside of drowning or maybe suffocating if something caves in or falls on a dwarf.

And not so many new "features" at once please. Please just fucking fix the things which were broken before .18. I still don't know how to use crossbows, and my dwarves with broken feet still aren't getting better. I like a lot of the new ideas that were implemented (ie: eggs/nests, grass and moss, grazing animals, etc...) but some of them are just stupid. Removing ALL THE METALS, for instance, just makes it harder to get into the game and puts more focus on specific parts of the game which people may want to ignore. I don't want to trade with people for metal, I want to mine it myself. A pyramid of solid gold is pointless if it's not dwarven gold. I don't want a shitty elf-gold pyramid. I only want to trade for drinks. And moreover, removing metals created a problem, but there is not yet a solution to this problem. What is the point of that? And how about "animals get pissed off in close quarters"? Is Toady trying to discourage the taming of animals? He still hasn't even fixed dungeon masters yet! Forget mounts, why would I ever want to tame war-dogs anymore when they're practically useless against armored and large foes, spawn like rabbits, and now kill everything that is in close proximity to them, INCLUDING MY OWN DWARVES!? It forces me to build larger forts to accommodate all my animals. That makes sense, but with such little incentive to actually train and capture animals, and so many negatives (FPS, useless, cats, etc...) why would I even bother? This new update is game-breakingly bad. At least he didn't re-add Arsenal Dwarf.

Not bothering with the new .19 version anymore until this shit is fixed.
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Assassinfox

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Re: What you DONT want in DF?
« Reply #138 on: February 23, 2011, 12:02:05 am »

NW_Kohaku

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Re: What you DONT want in DF?
« Reply #139 on: February 23, 2011, 12:04:47 am »

You know, I sometimes really get the sense that people will wonder how they ever played without certain things that they argue against once they actually go in.  Things like sewage are fiercely opposed, but nobody really cares about the vomit that's already there.

People are massively opposed to 31.19's metal scarcity, but once the trading comes in, all the problems associated with the metal scarcity should calm down, as well.

When magic comes, within a couple months, just about everyone but a few die-hard holdouts (the sorts still playing 40d now) are going to be using it and finding ways to adapt it to their own playstyles.

I haven't really seen much of anything in this thread that I don't think the community wouldn't fairly quickly adapt to and enjoy.
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Max White

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Re: What you DONT want in DF?
« Reply #140 on: February 23, 2011, 12:10:40 am »

~Snip~
Have you read up on how Toady want to implment magic? Because it is dead sexy! Basicaly it will be done through artifacts, so the only source of magic will be moods, stopping it from being common, and you will not be told what the artifact does, so keeping it far from mundane. A big part of the game will be figuring out just what magic you have access to, and that sounds like fun to me.

A host of wizzards rocking up and casting alohomora? Forget that! We will have science to figure out what magic is!

varnish

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Re: What you DONT want in DF?
« Reply #141 on: February 23, 2011, 12:31:52 am »

To clarify my position on magic, what I really don't want to see is dwarf wizards. I don't want magic to be just a skill like mining or weaving. And from what I've read, it doesn't seem like the game is going that way. I like the idea of magic being something rare, mysterious and dangerous. Something that might be potentially useful, but risky, as you'll never know what you're going to get.

Does this make sense? I am notoriously terrible at making my thoughts clear.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: What you DONT want in DF?
« Reply #142 on: February 23, 2011, 12:44:57 am »

To clarify my position on magic, what I really don't want to see is dwarf wizards. I don't want magic to be just a skill like mining or weaving. And from what I've read, it doesn't seem like the game is going that way. I like the idea of magic being something rare, mysterious and dangerous. Something that might be potentially useful, but risky, as you'll never know what you're going to get.

Does this make sense? I am notoriously terrible at making my thoughts clear.

Most of the people who say they are against magic generally say they are against dwarven wizards who cast magic missile for 10 mana points.

Generally speaking, magic in terms of artifacts and alchemy tends to be the middle ground that most people tend to be best able to agree upon.

You could also probably look at something like this thread, and tell me your opinions on the matter of having sphere-magic-based biomes.  I'm just about to write that up in the farming thread, anyway.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
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Max White

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Re: What you DONT want in DF?
« Reply #143 on: February 23, 2011, 03:08:36 am »

Most of the people who say they are against magic generally say they are against dwarven wizards who cast magic missile for 10 mana points.

Generally speaking, magic in terms of artifacts and alchemy tends to be the middle ground that most people tend to be best able to agree upon.

You could also probably look at something like this thread, and tell me your opinions on the matter of having sphere-magic-based biomes.  I'm just about to write that up in the farming thread, anyway.
Darn it NW_Kohaku, I'm tired, and already under read on that topic. Do you have to make it longer? I feel like I'm in highschool and forgot to do my homework, only to get even more then next week. Why must your works be detailed? Wouldn't 'Do cool stuff with farming' be enough?!?!?
/Sarcastic joke  :P

Mantonio

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Re: What you DONT want in DF?
« Reply #144 on: February 23, 2011, 06:29:54 am »

You know, I sometimes really get the sense that people will wonder how they ever played without certain things that they argue against once they actually go in.  Things like sewage are fiercely opposed, but nobody really cares about the vomit that's already there.

People are massively opposed to 31.19's metal scarcity, but once the trading comes in, all the problems associated with the metal scarcity should calm down, as well.

When magic comes, within a couple months, just about everyone but a few die-hard holdouts (the sorts still playing 40d now) are going to be using it and finding ways to adapt it to their own playstyles.

I haven't really seen much of anything in this thread that I don't think the community wouldn't fairly quickly adapt to and enjoy.

I think the may problem people have with it (now that we're all happy that trading is going to improve somewhat) is that it's, well, not dwarfy.

Dwarfiness is having entire rooms full of gems and precious metals, checkering your floor with gold and silver tiles and still having enough for each person to have their own personal money bath. Now you... can't do that.

Let me put it this way. You think Erebor got all their riches from Dale, or the Iron Hills, or Mirkwood? Hell no, they mined that stuff themselves!
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 06:32:32 am by Mantonio »
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Max White

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Re: What you DONT want in DF?
« Reply #145 on: February 23, 2011, 06:38:56 am »

I think the may problem people have with it (now that we're all happy that trading is going to improve somewhat) is that it's, well, not dwarfy.

Dwarfiness is having entire rooms full of gems and precious metals, checkering your floor with gold and silver tiles and still having enough for each person to have a money bath. Now you... can't do that.

Let me put it this way. You think Erebor got all their riches from Dale, or the Iron Hills, or Mirkwood? Hell no, they mined that stuff themselves!
See that is just playing off the cliches that were set down by Tolken and made stale by TSR and Blizzard. Toady seems to not want to play on these and instead form a new culture based off pre lord of the rings mythology (Thus, no orcs. I'm surprised by the lack of fomorians though!) where 'dwarfy' seems to be more about surviving and prospering then just shiney things from the ground. So cutting down a tree thats logs are worth as much as gold is just as dwarfy as making gold. Therefor trading for your own survival, and even even profit is very dwarfy!

Just look at one of the newest features, bee keeping. Not many modern versions of the dwarf would be interested in looking after bees when they could be digging a hole, but it fits in perfectly with DF because it's all about exploiting something for survival and profit.

Erkki

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Re: What you DONT want in DF?
« Reply #146 on: February 23, 2011, 06:44:39 am »

So, it sounds like if Toady is going to implement very LOTR\Silmarillion-ish magic.

I like it.
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Mantonio

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Re: What you DONT want in DF?
« Reply #147 on: February 23, 2011, 07:04:04 am »

I think the may problem people have with it (now that we're all happy that trading is going to improve somewhat) is that it's, well, not dwarfy.

Dwarfiness is having entire rooms full of gems and precious metals, checkering your floor with gold and silver tiles and still having enough for each person to have a money bath. Now you... can't do that.

Let me put it this way. You think Erebor got all their riches from Dale, or the Iron Hills, or Mirkwood? Hell no, they mined that stuff themselves!
See that is just playing off the cliches that were set down by Tolken and made stale by TSR and Blizzard. Toady seems to not want to play on these and instead form a new culture based off pre lord of the rings mythology (Thus, no orcs. I'm surprised by the lack of fomorians though!) where 'dwarfy' seems to be more about surviving and prospering then just shiney things from the ground. So cutting down a tree thats logs are worth as much as gold is just as dwarfy as making gold. Therefor trading for your own survival, and even even profit is very dwarfy!

Just look at one of the newest features, bee keeping. Not many modern versions of the dwarf would be interested in looking after bees when they could be digging a hole, but it fits in perfectly with DF because it's all about exploiting something for survival and profit.

My point was that the chance for customisation, extravagance and (especially) megaprojects has been stunted somewhat. After being allowed to go nuts with our imaginations for so long the chain has suddenly been put around our neck and jerked back. Now we're not even allowed to know what kind of stone we're embarking on! Why not, why do we have to now savescum to get the stone we want? The lego box has had half the blocks removed, and now we're not even allowed to choose the colour!

Yeah, you COULD just import the the thousands of metal / stone blocks needed to make your dream fort, but I don't think anyone would disagree that that cheapens the experience somewhat.

It used to be 'What do you want to make?" now it's "Well you've got that... and that. That's it."
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Buttery_Mess

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Re: What you DONT want in DF?
« Reply #148 on: February 23, 2011, 08:06:37 am »

I don't think dwarves should ever have access to magic, apart from with artifacts, and maybe alchemy or exploiting components that are for whatever reason naturally magical. For example, nether caps could be considered naturally magical, or dragon skin, or whatever.

Dwarves are clearly the best race when it comes to crafts and the mundane, nobody else should be able to compete with them. Other races should have magic in keeping with their theme, to make up for what they can't do but dwarves can. Obviously elves have some abilities to extract wood from trees without chopping them down, and they probably should have magic that lets them control animals and grow trees into the shape they want so they can live in them. So they should probably have an array of druid powers.

Humans are basically the same as dwarves, but they can't do what dwarves can do, and should have a very hard time mining otherwise why wouldn't they just live underground? To compensate, they should be able to use some magic, I'm thinking wizard magic or priest magic, so they can heal people and fight better. (They don't have the benefit of being totally enclosed most of the time, so they need to be able to fend off aerial attackers better. Also it makes sense, since they're bigger and have longer limbs that can apply force more easily).

Kobolds are adept sneakers and thieves, I guess they don't really need magic powers.

Goblins, I don't know if they need magic powers. They should be able to survive by pillaging, as opposed to thieving.

There's no particular reason why magic needs to be obvious and showy. Anything that does exist in a fantasy world that can't exist in ours can be considered magical. For example, the wealth of life in caverns must be magical somehow. Adamantine and slade are probably magical. Dwarves must be sustained by some kind of magic if they can tolerate wandering around near lava. Kobolds' ability to sneak so well might well be a subtle form of magic, like LOTR hobbits and their ability to sneak.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: What you DONT want in DF?
« Reply #149 on: February 23, 2011, 10:05:54 am »

I think the may problem people have with it (now that we're all happy that trading is going to improve somewhat) is that it's, well, not dwarfy.

Dwarfiness is having entire rooms full of gems and precious metals, checkering your floor with gold and silver tiles and still having enough for each person to have their own personal money bath. Now you... can't do that.

Let me put it this way. You think Erebor got all their riches from Dale, or the Iron Hills, or Mirkwood? Hell no, they mined that stuff themselves!

I'm not sure what you mean, who/what's Erebor?

Are you really sure you know that it's going to be completely impossible to do things like that in the future, though?

For starters, keep in mind that the 31.01 absurd overabundance of metals was a very temporary fluke that existed for about 10 months until Toady was done fixing all the bugs introduced in 31.01, and could start working on the actual game functions again, and the absurd overabundance was the first thing to go.  That kind of mineral abundance was never intended for the game. 40d had much less material.  Now, that said, I still think the current method is far too barren, and hope things will move back more towards 40d's mineral concentrations, even if not all the way there, but closer to 40d than it is now. 

Undergrotto was in 40d, and managed to make a huge palace of solid precious metals like gold and platinum.  Retro did that by trading a few blocks of ore and bars of metal at a time over the course of about 10 game years.  A whole palace paved in gold.  Trading.  Back when you aren't even supposed to trade for things you need.

Maybe you could have a little more faith in Toady being willing to cater to multiple types of playstyles?

(If trading for gold is somehow not enough for you for whatever odd reason, in which case, what you seem to be demanding is that the game never change at all from what you have in 31.18, then there's still that init option Toady is going to leave behind to ensure that when you flick that switch, the game never changes at all from what it was in 31.18.  Isn't that exactly what you want?)

I don't think dwarves should ever have access to magic, apart from with artifacts, and maybe alchemy or exploiting components that are for whatever reason naturally magical. For example, nether caps could be considered naturally magical, or dragon skin, or whatever.

Dwarves are clearly the best race when it comes to crafts and the mundane, nobody else should be able to compete with them. Other races should have magic in keeping with their theme, to make up for what they can't do but dwarves can. Obviously elves have some abilities to extract wood from trees without chopping them down, and they probably should have magic that lets them control animals and grow trees into the shape they want so they can live in them. So they should probably have an array of druid powers.

Humans are basically the same as dwarves, but they can't do what dwarves can do, and should have a very hard time mining otherwise why wouldn't they just live underground? To compensate, they should be able to use some magic, I'm thinking wizard magic or priest magic, so they can heal people and fight better. (They don't have the benefit of being totally enclosed most of the time, so they need to be able to fend off aerial attackers better. Also it makes sense, since they're bigger and have longer limbs that can apply force more easily).

Kobolds are adept sneakers and thieves, I guess they don't really need magic powers.

Goblins, I don't know if they need magic powers. They should be able to survive by pillaging, as opposed to thieving.

There's no particular reason why magic needs to be obvious and showy. Anything that does exist in a fantasy world that can't exist in ours can be considered magical. For example, the wealth of life in caverns must be magical somehow. Adamantine and slade are probably magical. Dwarves must be sustained by some kind of magic if they can tolerate wandering around near lava. Kobolds' ability to sneak so well might well be a subtle form of magic, like LOTR hobbits and their ability to sneak.

Thing is, putting in magic for elves to use is the same thing as putting magic into the game... it's just turned off for dwarves in vanilla, but eventually even vanilla is expected to let you play as elves, once they are given a chance to be sufficiently different enough that they aren't just dwarves with some of their features turned off (like, say, giving elves magic to differentiate them). 

Even if dwarves don't get it, it still has to go into the game to give it to anyone.

That means the magic-happy people can go play Wizard Tower (old dev goal) instead of Dwarf Fortress.  Flavor-wise you still have no dwarven wizards and only humans and elves and demons and maybe goblins are the "wizard" types, which seems to be what you want, and what the pro-more-useful-magic people want.

The only thing I worry about with magic is just in how random it really is.  I remember one of the magic suggestion threads having dwarven wizards that are completely uncontrollable who do nothing positive, but can randomly open up a portal to the HFS inside your fortress, because having a 10% chance of completely destroying your fort every season for utterly no reason was "Fun".  That's the sort of magic where the only answer is to shove anyone who shows any magical talent into a volcano on sight.  (Fortunately, Toady certainly seems to understand this part.)  I can certainly understand why people say a magic system where someone is a "firebolt mage" who has "cast firebolt" at legendary and does nothing but spit firebolts is boring and shouldn't go in, but that doesn't mean the opposite extreme, where the game just rolls a die every season and suddenly declares your fortress crumbles and there's nothing you can do about it is a better answer at all.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

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