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[Cosmonot]

It occurred to me while starting an adventurer game in the new release that the only traditional "evil" sentient humanoids in DF are goblins and kobolds (and trolls). Is this intentional or are the bigger baddies like orcs missing for a reason?

[PNB]

orcs suck?

[John Hopoate]

Toady also forgot about the Belgians and the Japanese.

[Cosmonot]

quote:Originally posted by PNB:
<STRONG>orcs suck?</STRONG>

Arguably so, but without them there's a sort of "common sentient bad guys" power vacuum, unless goblins and kobolds are tougher than they are depicted as being elsewhere. Also, the chasm nasties aren't smart, right?

I know people end up fighting the humans and elves anyway, but if there were orcs or something functionally similar, later on I could play one in adventure mode, reversing the whole "town/dungeon" mechanic by harboring in caves and attacking hamlets, without being a puny kobold.

quote:Originally posted by John Hopoate:  <STRONG>Toady also forgot about the Belgians and the Japanese.</STRONG>

Yes, I used the word race to refer to nonhuman sentient creatures. Is that wrong?

[John Hopoate]

"Yes, I used the word race to refer to nonhuman sentient creatures. Is that wrong?"

I was just making a joke about your "You forgot some of the evil races" complaint. Though I'd imagine that technically Orcs should be a separate species to humans rather than a race of humans. There are 1/2 Orcs in some games but no-one is 1/4 or 1/8 Orc or whatever. So we can presume that a 1/2 Orc is like a mule, the infertile offspring of two separate species. That said I'm no expert on fantasy game biology.

[Cosmonot]

Neither am I; I just found "Aspuz Facespider," a goblin child born in 10, slain in 1050.

You might think that such longevity would be unexpected from a species regularly warring against the dwarves, since the longest-lived species are generally the least likely to overpopulate, which would be required for the wars they have in Dwarf mode.

[ November 02, 2006: Message edited by: Cosmonot ]

[PNB]

well no, orcs are humaniods. a half orc simply when bred, breeds out to merely orcish. slightly like an orc. but mostly the first race.

[Gakidou]

quote:Originally posted by Cosmonot:
<STRONG>Neither am I; I just found "Aspuz Facespider," a goblin child born in 10, slain in 1050.

You might think that such longevity would be unexpected from a species regularly warring against the dwarves, since the longest-lived species are generally the least likely to overpopulate, which would be required for the wars they have in Dwarf mode.

[ November 02, 2006: Message edited by: Cosmonot ]</STRONG>

What is really odd is that a goblin CHILD lived for the vast majority of the world's existance. I wonder if it was undead? At the moment, legends don't mention whether a creature was undead or not. (Which they really should, I think; date of undeath sounds historically relevant. You just know that there is going to be rivalry between the old guard and ones that fairly recently undied.)

[greywolf]

Ah, but to become undead, the child would have to die first, so there's really no way around this 1000-year old child idea.

[20,000leeks]

<insert>

[Devastator]

Aren't orcs just another word for goblins anyway?

[Mechanoid]

quote:Originally posted by Devastator:
<STRONG>Aren't orcs just another word for goblins anyway?</STRONG>

No, both are different species.
Goblins are often seen as small, hairless, green, cowardly creatures which are barely intelligent enough to use weaponry and tools. Their wills are often easilly bent, as well. Orcs on the other hand are often the size of humans (more or less) have wirey hair patches, and are intelligent enough to have tactics.

On occasion though, some games move away from the 'evil forces' aspect and more towards a naturalistic 'just different species and cultures' and give the creatures more then the tag of "the evil henchman" (IE: Some MUDs, and MMOs, but notably WarCraft 3)
But since Dwarf Fortress has that Lord of the Rings feel where there's some major evil force controlling creatures' actions, i would say that orcs and goblins would be portrayed as sub-sentient and sub-humanoid. Still, seperate species which were made for a certain purpose by the forces of evil. (Orcs to terrorize humans and elves; goblins to terrorize dwarves)

[Rondol]

If we wanted to be technical and Tolkien-esque, then orcs are actually a twisted and corrupted form of elf, created ... ah hell, a long time ago. Been a while since I read the Silmarillion. Also if I recall correctly goblins and orcs are almost identical, with "goblin" being a subrace of orcs.

[Toady One]

Yeah, DND (or perhaps earlier?) split goblins and orcs apart from where tolk had them (and gave orcs pig heads at first), and introduced kobolds and hobgoblins (and gnolls, and etc. etc etc) as other humanoids.

DF has goblins, which are more or less tolkish, as the main evil humanoid, with kobolds, which aren't tolkish, as a nuisance humanoid.  There are various other evil humanoids as you've seen if you've played adventure mode in particular (ogres in corrupted plains for example, and various others).  Gobs/kobs are sufficient for the main adversaries for now, and in any case I'm not trying to develop a set universe with various set intricacies.  It's all a template for future variability, pretty much, though it's nice to have something concrete to work with before I attempt that.  It's hard to think of the worlds you generate as lasting very long because of the bugs and the new features going in constantly, but if a world is supposed to last longer, then it's justified to have more random and diverse content that you can discover and become immersed in.  It's a long-term goal, anyway.

[Cosmonot]

Okay. I was afraid that any theoretical goblin adventurers I might have would be weaklings. Also, the goblin child was very much alive right up to the point where it met me.