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[NW_Kohaku]

Well, I don't rebind many of the keys, since it's a bit of a pain.  The only thing I HAVE to change is the < and > up and down to 5 and 0.  Putting the z-axis movement on an entirely separate part of the keyboard and making you use the shift key to boot to handle even one shift on an entire axis of motion, arguably the most important one, since it's the one you have to shift to see anything different?  That's just absurd!

I think rebinding those z-keys is also important for other aspects of the game, as I seem to play a far more vertical game than most other people, and I think that having an annoying up/down button just makes people more prone to making horizontal building methods, although I could be wrong, and it could be more of a bias passed in from real-life building methods.

[Naros]

Nothing besides visual grouping.

It was to stop people from getting lost in a field of lines.

For future reference, use thicker lines that are spaced out somewhat. And parentheses, so instead of having six lines have one line ending in a parenthesis, so it's less cluttered.

[PartyBear]

Why not just map those on-screen buttons to your keyboard in that specific order?  Top left button is "q" on the keyboard, top mid-left is "w", then top mid-right is "e".  Screw what the name of the function was, I don't need to know that the gun on a battleship is called a "Y"amato Cannon, I just need to fire it as fast as I can while mashing through my list of available battleships before I get out-moused by my enemy.  The closer together the main functions are in terms of hotkeys, the better it is for control and ease of memory.  There's only at most 12 buttons, and they are already ordered in a way that makes binding them to "qwer asdf zxcv" extremely easy to remember.

Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds did that.  I hated it because I couldn't remember what any of the keys actually did.  The problem was that the hotkeys were bound to a visual reference.  Hotkeys are supposed to be independent of the onscreen interface.  In that game, I had to think, "What do I want to build?  Which position is that on the grid?  Which key is that?"  I wasted so much time looking at the grid to figure out which button did what I wanted that pressing the hotkey instead of clicking the button didn't even save me any time.  In every other RTS I've played, I only had to think, "What do I want to build?  Which key is that?"  Given enough experience with the game, I probably would have adapted and memorized the hotkeys even without the usual mnemonics, but that's true of any interface, including DF's current one.

Your brain may work differently from mine, of course, but personally, I picked up everything in DF way faster than Galactic Battlegrounds.

[NW_Kohaku]

Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds did that.  I hated it because I couldn't remember what any of the keys actually did.  The problem was that the hotkeys were bound to a visual reference.  Hotkeys are supposed to be independent of the onscreen interface.  In that game, I had to think, "What do I want to build?  Which position is that on the grid?  Which key is that?"  I wasted so much time looking at the grid to figure out which button did what I wanted that pressing the hotkey instead of clicking the button didn't even save me any time.  In every other RTS I've played, I only had to think, "What do I want to build?  Which key is that?"  Given enough experience with the game, I probably would have adapted and memorized the hotkeys even without the usual mnemonics, but that's true of any interface, including DF's current one.

Your brain may work differently from mine, of course, but personally, I picked up everything in DF way faster than Galactic Battlegrounds.

Well, maybe I do just have a different mindset...

Anyone else have similar experiences?  A preferring spatial logic to alphabetic logic or vice-versa? 

(I'm totally going down the path of creating a new thread on this, now...)

[Maklak]

I played GC for maybe half an hour and didn't really like the mouse interface. I kinda liked the idea of less micromanagement, where best workers are automatically chosen for tasks. 

I preffer hotkeys to somehow make sense for memonic reasons rather than be close together. {b}uild -> {d}oor is preferable to something like 1->4. However I admit, that when I build many of the same item, the keys are often far apart, and my lack of skill{10 finger fast typing} makes me sometimes press wrong buttons, which is annoying. I'm kinda used to programs having menus, where you can press <Alt>+{F}ile, <Alt>+{O}oen and such.

The interface is workable for the most part. Especially with a tileset and DT. I suppose my biggest complaint about it would be tediousness as fort grows bigger. A quick example: Scrolling through 300+ animals in a cage without any filters and seeing only 10 at a time is no fun.

As for mouse support, I'd be pretty happy with the following functionality (some of which is in, I think):
- cursor does not change position when wsitching among 'k', 't', 'q', 'v'. If screen was moved on X-Y coordinates to where it wouldn't be visible, it can be centered instead. Moving up or down keeps cursor where it is.
- clicking on the screen is the same as pressing enter.
- clicking secondary mouse button may be equivalent to 'q' over buildings, 'v' over creatures and 'k' over anything else, like stockpiles. I don't know what to do, when a creature is in the same tile as building.
- moving the cursor over help menu on the right, and pressing something activates that option. (that is help / component choosing menu is made of clickable buttons)
- there are clickable < > icons on the screen (altough < and > are confusing to me, I never remember which one is up or down)
- there is some kind of slider to quickly move up or down many Z-levels, or some kind of << >> that moves by 10 levels at once, and usable with hotkeys.
- maybe more sliders and + - ++ -- to move quicker through various lists.
- clicking on the map moves view there.
- when I make a rectangle abs(dx) and abs(dy) are displayed, so I don't have to count tiles. This is more important for mouse control.

That's about it, I suppose.

[NW_Kohaku]

Well, the problem I have with basing the key off of the first letter in something's name is that it comes down to one of two ways of handling things:

1.  What we see in DF most of the time.  If you want to build a bridge, you don't use "b"uild -> "b"ridge.  That builds a "b"ed.  You use "b"uild -> brid"g"e. 

You also don't "b"uild a "w"all, you "b"uild -> "C"onstruction (with a capital C, no less) -> "w"all.

Oh, and did I mention that up/down stairs is "x" in constructions and "i" in designations?  Because it's an "x" in constructions apparently to mimick the (visual) aspect of what the stairs are represented as, while it's "i" in another menu, while "j" is down stairs, just so that they are near the "u"p stairs, apparently.  The latter of which seems pretty similar to my "spatial logic" argument, and apparently, we've all gotten used to that little gem.

2.  What we see in games like NetHack.  You don't use a wand, you don't cast from a wand, no you zap a wand.  Because they decided to use "z", so they had to come up with some function whose name could start with a z to be useful. 

This has obvious problems when you need to, say, "q"uery your workshops to assign them tasks.  I mean, really, who thinks they're querrying their workshops to assign them tasks?

I should point out that this is displaying a variety of fairly inconsistant control methods, here...

But apparently, we've all gotten used to all of them, no matter how nonsensical it is when they're all mashed together. 

So, I have to ask again, does it really make for a more difficult time to learn keybindings that are laid out for optimization of how far your finger reaches to hit them as opposed to making us remember that we need to "z"ap our wands?

[therahedwig]

I think the game is better off with functional consistency first and then spatial consistency.

So to me it's more important that the key used to build a bed is the same in all menus, rather then that the key used to build the 3rd thing on the list is everywhere the same. Because then we get something like that the bed is 'c' in the build menu and 'e' in the mason's workshop and 'f' in the carpenter's workshop, which would be something you'd want to avoid.

In general, there's two things that have to be considered with the UI:
1- Hotkeys, which kohaku is worrying about.
2- HUD, which I worried about earlier.
The HUD should be formed so that a new user can find what they need easier.
The Hotkeys should be formed so that old players and new ones can quickly move about.
In either case, clutter needs to be removed from the old system. The key here is to standardise everything. It be best if we'd be able to get into dialogue with Toady about this. It is unlikely we would be able to.

Mouse support should be considered.

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usability

Kohaku, perhaps this still requires debate before you start threading about it.

[NW_Kohaku]

Kohaku, perhaps this still requires debate before you start threading about it.

The thread I'd make is for debate.   

I mean making something like another spin-off thread with a poll to see what percentage of the playerbase think like PartyBear thinks, and what percentage of the playerbase think like I think. 

Also, I hardly think I've ever been quashing debate in any of my threads, especially since I have to work so hard to even get people to read them and comment in the first place.

[NW_Kohaku]

1- Hotkeys, which kohaku is worrying about.

Thing is, "hotkey" implies that it's just a quick shortcut to do something that would otherwise require going through a more complex part of the interface.

When I bind healing potions to a hotkey in a dungeon crawler, it's because I don't want to open up the inventory screen and find the healing potion in the inventory every time, I hotkey it to make it quicker.

DF doesn't have hotkeys, it has "the only way to perform this function".  "b"uild bringing up the build menu isn't a shortcut, it's the only way to do it. 

Technically, you can call "b"uild -> brid"g"e a "hotkey" because you could also use "+" and "-" and then hit "enter" to select it, but even then, it's graphically listed as using "g", and hitting "g" is hardly going to require more effort at that point than hitting "+" 6 times and then enter, so I'm not sure how many people would do it that way, even early on.

[therahedwig]

I meant the keys used to get to the functions.

[Maklak]

So, I have to ask again, does it really make for a more difficult time to learn keybindings that are laid out for optimization of how far your finger reaches to hit them as opposed to making us remember that we need to "z"ap our wands?

I preffer it when at least some of these keys "make sense". But then again I know, that keybord layout was optimised for fas typing, have been using keyboards for like 15 years, and still can't remember the keys without looking, because they are "unintuitive" QWERTY rather than "obvious" ABCDEF. Having two keys close together, like 'a' and 'c' kinda helps, but I usually put fingers where I need them, and keep them on appropriate keys when I want to add 10 items to a workshop for example (I sometimes order items manually rather than by manager).

Also, I hardly think I've ever been quashing debate in any of my threads, especially since I have to work so hard to even get people to read them and comment in the first place.

I can only say for myself, but your threads are scarry WALLS OF TEXT. I managed to read some of your "Volatile the earth" thread over the weekend. I even learned at least two things from it (but I forgot what). Overall it was interesting, but too complex to implement. Watering fields and fertilizer that is not deleted every season would be good enough for me. Anyway, I haven't recovered enough from that thread to even touch any of your other big suggestions yet. They are probably interesting and educational, and even divided in smaller parts for easier digestion, and have references to articles on various subjects, but still too much for me. Especially when I'm tired after my day job. I'm mostly in for qick game hints and random trolling rather than lenghty discussions of (to date) nonexistent game mechanics. I've only seen one scarier thread than a few of yours combined and it was about building an 8 bit processor out of mechanisms and water.
This is not to criticise you. You are doing far greater service to this game than I ever plan to. I's jus that I feel that way about reading 10+ pages of long posts, and probalby many other people feel that way too to more or greater extent. 

[NW_Kohaku]

I preffer it when at least some of these keys "make sense". But then again I know, that keybord layout was optimised for fas typing, have been using keyboards for like 15 years, and still can't remember the keys without looking,

Actually, funny story, they were optimized for having typewriters whose columns matched frequently used letters with infrequently used letters because of the technical aspects of typewriter function, not for speed of use.  Keyboards that are made for speed of use would naturally put all the vowels on homekeys, as they are far more common than j, k, or l are.

"Volatile the earth"

I'm sorry, I laughed at that.  (It's "violate", as in "do very bad things to", as opposed to "volatile", which means "unstable and prone to change"... "volatile" is an amusingly good term to describe the thread, but it's not a verb.  I named it "violate the earth" in an attempt to reference the "strike the earth!" catchphrase, but twist it more towards the meaning of "doing bad things to the earth" through unsustainable farming practices.)

I can only say for myself, but your threads are scarry WALLS OF TEXT.

Yes, so I am pretty frequently told... or not told when people don't read or comment at all because of lack of desire to read it all.  (Also, none of my other threads are nearly that long, not even by a tenth.)  All I can really say to that is, "I like analyzing games for fun".  I haven't even seriously played DF in several months, just because I'm more focused upon analysis and theory than actually doing.

It is, however, specifically because of that problem if "WALLS OF TEXT" that I specifically took the effort to make a "tl;dr version", a "so what would I actually do?" version, and link directly to the pictures from the start of the thread, just under the "tl;dr version", just to try to get as much brisk information to the person who was curious without wanting to read the entire proposal as I could. 

I want people to be interested in it, and try to comment on it, or it just becomes the thread of the 5 people who were actually willing to read it all and comment, which isn't exactly a representative slice of the gaming population. 

I don't think it's too complex to implement, for sure.  It may be dauntingly complex for someone encountering it for the first time, however, and that's why I've been specifically trying to funnel people new to the thread to the Interface section and the "what you actually do" section that I just wrote so that I can get some reaction on the way in which it woudl be presented to the player because I've been putting a great deal of thought into how to streamline the interface, present all the information the player would need to them at the places they make their decisions, and still not make the damn scheduler screen look like the cockpit of a 767 because of how much information is being thrust at the player at once.

If you could leave any comment you have upon the thread or system so far in that thread, I'd appreciate it.  If you tried writing out a post in one window while reading in another window, and make some kind of "reading journal", detailing your reactions to any given thing, especially the interface, that would be ideal.

(... Did I just respond to a comment that I create walls of text by creating a wall of text?)

[runiq]

[…]

This has obvious problems when you need to, say, "q"uery your workshops to assign them tasks.  I mean, really, who thinks they're querying their workshops to assign them tasks?

I should point out that this is displaying a variety of fairly inconsistant control methods, here...

But apparently, we've all gotten used to all of them, no matter how nonsensical it is when they're all mashed together. 

So, I have to ask again, does it really make for a more difficult time to learn keybindings that are laid out for optimization of how far your finger reaches to hit them as opposed to making us remember that we need to "z"ap our wands?

Emphasis mine.

That sounds like a good idea to me. I remember playing FF7 on the number block of my keyboard, and it felt alien at first. However, after a day or two of playing, it became second nature and I could breeze through menus, options and the like without any problems at all. I believed this was the most ingenious control scheme ever.

And I’d love to have the same in DF. If the momentarily available keys/functions were arranged in some kind of grid (instead of the current “list”), it would allow us to play without having to look at the keyboard at all, which makes for uninterrupted flow of gameplay, which in turn is definitely a plus in my book. I can reach about 15-16 keys easily just when resting my hand on ASDF, and IIRC no menu has 16 different keys/functions assigned to it (apart from those UMHK thingies, obviously, but that’s another problem).

It is actually possible to change the keybindings to this layout, but since the key def screen is so… well, let’s call it detailed, that would be nothing but a royal pain in the ass to set up.

Conclusion: I’m all for kohaku’s idea.

(Disclaimer: I’m a Linux/vim guy.)

[G-Flex]

I agree that keybindings should be optimized for ease of use in terms of muscle memory (and perhaps some sort of logical layout) irrespective of having the letters themselves make any sense. It's not as if I think of what "v" or "k" or "z" mean when I press them; it's just muscle memory.

[Immortal]

I believe using the [d]oor and ed is the best way of choosing keys no matter what GUI we have. The only gripe on GUI I currently have is the uppermost menu during fortress mode, I believe the right hand menu should be aligned more and the options possibly grouped. Like the below example.
                m - military
                n - burrows (Don't quote me on the hotkeys)
                z - stockpiles
Continued in a somewhat logical order of use, say from military -> economy -> construction or similar. It would also be nice if there were basic titles like the former mentioned, it would help me find the ones I forget and not to mention reduce the learning curve if the first menu you seen in game wasn't a mash of options?