By the way,
Extension. Only one will be lynched today.
Holy shit, the first time I see the thread after the night and there're already several walls of text.
First of all, I want to apologize for my passive play day one - as I said, I had a busy week and I was thinking more than writing.
Book: Ottofar - scum, just as day one.
Argembarger - I think town, but I can't pinpoint reason.
Leafsnail - his answer day one seemed pretty solid, and I don't have much else, so I'd say he's town.
Top scumpick:
Ottofar, webadict because of his useless statistics, Toaster for the same reason as yesterday.
Now, why do you alternately refer to webadict's numbers and discard them as bullshit?
There are several things wrong with this post. I'll have a good look at you in a bit, but for now, I'm just going to answer the "useless statistics" aspects. First of all, you seem to think the crux of my argument lies on statistics. It does not. In fact, there are no statistics used in anyone's lynching. In defense of people, yes. In attacking, no. So, you seem to be skipping through my posts. Congratulations on that. I could just as well say that you've done no scumhunting. Do I know? Of course not. I don't remember your posts. Equivocally, you haven't done much to bring attention to this to me, so I'd say you're riding off of other people's arguments.
Incredi-scummy. That's why you get a lookin' at.
Ottofar: Two vig, or camo ext + vig? Top 3 scumpicks? Why so lazy?
Camo+Ext, I guess.
Soonish
PFP'ing.
I disagree. There is much better things to pick than Camo, and I am seriously doubting that choice. I have a better solution.
Web in general: I'm not looking for his defense, but I did made myself stick out early on. Something like that is going to form the meat of people's arguments. He should make his points more with reason and less with statistics. He can't be role-based certain since he said that D1, but I take that to mean he's quite confident in his statement.
I never gave it for you. I gave it for the Town. Not only that, it's only minorly based on statistics. The rest is based on Book's attitude and my personal reasoning. Don't be so conceded. I also think Ottofar is town, too.
webadict, why do you say Toaster is town because Book is scum? That looks like either/or reasoning to me. Or, you know, crap.
It's not either or. Either or would be me saying "Either Book is scum or Toaster is scum." I don't believe that at all. Mostly because that implies there's a chance of Book not being scum. And that would be silly. He never followed through on his attack of Toaster, OMGUSed me for pointing out his lack of scumhunting, and then proceeds to OMGUS everyone everywhere he can find. He had several chances to make a case against Toaster, but he never did. I could honestly care less about Toaster. Really, I'd defend anyone that's being voted for very poor reasons. The fact that he tried to continued to push for a Toaster lynch only made Toaster look less like a person to lynch.
I'd say a combination of Book and Jokerman, for stalling yesterday in the no-lynch that forced me to waste my nightkill being the law.
Not only did you have the ability to kill either of these people yesternight (Okay, maybe not Joker, but definitely Book) or Ottofar really throws any credit you had coming into today. I think you're a Doppelganger Vigilante. Really, you thought Ottofar was scum, but decided to kill Janus to "not waste a lynch" and yet you're now throwing your vote at Ottofar, which is EXACTLY WHAT YOU DID YESTERDAY. Don't you count that as a wasted lynch? I mean, at least Janus was giving something to the Town. He didn't do PFP every three seconds, and tried, although lazily, to do something. I would much rather have had you kill Ottofar last Night than Janus, and you know that killing Janus is worse than killing Ottofar.
You didn't help us out at all. You just did what you thought would look Townier. You should've killed the person you thought was scum. And apparently, that was Book and Ottofar. Except minus Book.
Book:
#1: You do make implications on Toaster's alignment. By attacking him with no evidence, lack of scumhunting, and generally no attempt, but your calling me scum for defending him implies that you would defend your partner, as you say I am defending mine. I also do not believe you would make yourself look like an idiot trying to attack someone like that. I also don't believe you'd waste time trying to fake an attack on Toaster, while also building up what looks like a lynchmob based on claiming Kook.
#2: You either misread what I wrote or just plan weren't reading it. I said your attitude turned MY belief of Toaster's alignment into a certainty. I did not say that you were certain of Toaster's alignment. You can reread it and see your mistake there. I can also say I never suggested chainlynching. Ever. Nor would I have. The point was that the claimed Kooks are more likely to be Kooks than to be scum. The fact you tried to turn my words into chainlynching suggest you wished to find something scummy about it, instead of generally believing such a thing was scummy.
#3: My point about your fake attack on Jokerman is that you didn't follow it up. You used it to make yourself look like you were scumhunting. Which you weren't. You had a target you could've scumhunted, but didn't. It came out of nowhere and stayed out of nowhere just as quick.
#4: You did shorten the Day. You turned 1 vote away into 2 votes away. 2 Hours before Day ended. You didn't want the Day to go on. That means you shortened the Day. Do you see how that works? You weren't voting for either of the two people that were on the line to be lynched. How does that mean you're satisfied with the current lynch choices? If anything, you should have extended to try and get your choice (me) lynched. Or switched to Janus before Shortening. You didn't though. That means you had no reason to Shorten at all, and you made any attempt at Extending impossible. You are a liar on at least that point. On the tying of the votes, you made no attempt to untie the votes, or vote for either of the players that were being lynched. That means shortening was pointless for you, except as a way to end discussion about you. That would be a half of a point that's wrong. As for suggesting the chainlynch, maybe you "didn't" but I never suggest chainlynching at all. You seem to think that's what I'm implying. I'm not, and that's not even what the numbers are for. They were to show that there is a significant chance of there being 2 Kooks, especially in a big game. So, instead, you were trying to twist my words into something else. So, you were basically suggesting a chainlynch was MY idea. Fine, you can lose the chainlynch idea, and keep the taking things way out of context idea.
#5: I actually never claimed Toaster was confirmed Town. Confirmed Town is incredibly hard to come by in this game. If anything a Kook could never be confirmed Town, if only due to game mechanics. However, I did say Toaster was more likely to be Town. I'll stick by that. I also love that twisting of words at the end. I never said that my numbers proved anything BUT slightly more Town. It was you trying to turn that "null tell" into a scum tell. And you kept switching. I never did. Here's where I can claim that
you need to prove I used statistics to say Toaster was confirmed Town. Otherwise, you're lying.
P.S. You're lying. I said that you are the reason I believe Toaster is town. Never statistics. Also, you never attempted to scumhunt Toaster. You made more attempt on Jokerman than Toaster. And that was FAKE.
#6: Right. So, you never backtracked ever. Besides ALWAYS. You always skip over that! You keep saying that claiming Kook is a null tell, and yet you keep saying it is a scum tell! You never make up your mind, and you've only said that it was a null tell to keep people from pointing out how blatantly lying you are about how helpful Kook claiming is, but say it is a scum tell to keep people from pointing out how blatantly pointless your attack on Toaster was. And the odd thing is it wouldn't have been pointless if you had scumhunted! You DIDN'T! Where's that point? I don't believe it was mentioned! The only thing I can say that you've proven is that you didn't suggest chainlynching. My bad. you suggested that
I suggested chainlynching, then tried to twist my words to make me say we should chainlynch, which not only would I never use numbers for, I never said nor advocated chainlynching. Jesus.
#7: When I said "losing the lead" I meant that the Town was one vote short of an Extension, well doable in two hours with about 8 people already voting on Extensions. With one further, it was nearly impossible. You did shorten the Day. Not admitting it is scummier for you than it is for everyone pointing out you shortened the Day. BECAUSE YOU DID.
#8: I think you've mixed up some points. Leafsnail wanted an Extension, for one. Ottofar and Native don't seem to have anything to do with this, for another. You're trying to pass blame onto others. Just like many things, I see. As for your shortening having a reason, see #4. I'll try not to "repeat myself."
#9: Alright. You asked for it. Is it fifty posts? No. But it's enough for you to be lying.
In general however, I do agree that a Kook claim in itself is a null tell: it doesn't make people scummy on its own, but it doesn't make them townier either.
Toaster is suspicious first because of his immediate kook claim. He seemed too eager to get on the ground floor, preempting any actual kooks claiming ahead of him. This is the best way to play it if you are scum fakeclaiming it, and Toaster is savvy enough and hard enough to read to get away with it. If Ottofar had claimed first, then Toaster would, I think, not have claimed at all. But that's not all. Toaster's posts so far have been noncommittal and give me the impression that he's trying to attack without fully engaging, which is how I've seen him play scum.
As I said, it's not just your claiming kook, but your amazing speed at doing so that strikes me as scummy. If you had done it an hour or two later it would have seemed less scummy. It just reeks to me as a preemptive fakeclaim. In isolation it's not much, but the rest of your posts also strike me as scummy, how you've managed to attack without engaging is compatible with what I know of your scum game, as is your silence over web's relentless defence of your towniehood (a townie would at least have said "hey, don't defend/buddy me"). Still, it's not enough for me to be certain you are scum, but it is enough for me to distrust your claim, leaving the fakeclaim a distinct possibility.
You imply that the null tell is a scumtell is a null tell, etc. Because he didn't claim an hour later. Explain how an hour's difference makes Toaster's claim make sense. I can see no problem with claiming in the first post that you have a potentially Power Role wasting ability. It'd be like, "I'm a Paranoird War Vet. Don't action me, or you'll die." And then the next person is like, "That's scummy. Only scum would want us to not action you. However, if you had claimed this 2 hours from now, I would not think it were scummy." The second person is making two points that are equally stupid: That only scum wouldn't want to be actioned, and that claiming this ability in the future makes a difference.
Now, even if that were it, it still wouldn't matter, but then assume that said second player never tries to determine how scummy first player is. Dur. It was the kook claim that you found scummy. You can argue "it was the way he claimed kook" but whether or not you actually believe that, it was the kook claim. You could not have been happy no matter how he would have posted it. If he posted it later, you would have argued that Town would claim in their first post. It's a trap that has no win, and you know it.
#10: Your point about the independence of my and Toaster's scummitude being independent is utterly shattered by you combining my and Leafsnail's scummitude with no reason other than for me too look worse by you attacking Leafsnail and then combining his and my stances together. There's no reason to assume my and Leafsnail's scummitude are in any way linked as much as my and Toaster's. But you did.
Unvote MBP
Argembarger: Ok, seems townish to me.
Book+Webadict: Seems to me that Book might be scummier.
Dariush: Lurk, Bandwagon.
MBP, for the thing I voted him for earlier.
Migraine- gonna go to dark room now.
Get to work on a real post. You've been posting from your phone enough, and we know you've got to have some time eventually.
Dariush:Since I'm really focusing on Book right now, I'll answer parts of this post. I'll then look back at you. Eventually.
#1: Seriously, do your own work. If you're not going to attempt to learn something about the argument, you're not playing. Not only will every argument have it's own bias on it, you're not even going to attempt to do anything about it at all anyhow, since you're complaining about WoTs. Seriously, that's not helpful. The fact that Book has several walls of texts might imply that you should READ THE WALLS OF TEXTS. Heck, maybe you should even read his defense!
#2: If I use these statistics constantly, then how is it you haven't read the Walls for a case on Book? I've used numbers for minor points, and ONLY as a defense. There has been no numbers for attacks, and there has been a number of valid points not using statistics.
Ottofar. Yes, that dead body over there is SO scummy.
PFP
Nice case you got there.
All of this piling on Book has me suspicious as Hell. If Book doesn't flip scum, then it's all but assured that one of the people on the bandwagon is scum.
Unfortunately, I do happen to think that Book is scum. Typical WUBA behavior is to latch on to a target and destroy them as hard as he can, which he is. Typical Book behavior is to do the same, and with huge walls of support behind him. However, Book didn't even seem to care about WUBA until WUBA attacked him - basically, the largest-scale OMGUS ever between these two. Book also seems a lot more defensive in his last couple posts than I like.
Jim, I may have missed it, but who are your suspicions?
Are you trying to hold both sides of this argument at once? You think he's scum, but if he's not, someone else might be? You're not making yourself much of a use to the Town with a reasoning like that. You could try: posting some argument for Book, posting some arguments against Book, posting some arguments for possible bad Book arguments, posting some arguments for good Book arguments, or posting some arguments in general. Remaining passive isn't good.
Book again:#1: If you are going to say that I'm taking it out of context, why didn't you answer it yourself? You ignored the post I said at all, and just figured you'd try and push through it tomorrow. It's obvious you saw Janus's posts stating you should take a stance on it, but you refuse to acknowledge my post pointing out how you weren't taking a stand on it. Mostly because min implies you are scum for not taking a stance on it. Which is exactly what I was calling you, since you were concerned about your image.
#2: And yet, I still have said plenty about your pointless Shortening, ending any more discussion about you.
#3: I never said Toaster was a confirmed Town. Only you have ever suggested such a thing. I believe Toaster is town. You can certainly argue that. But, to suggest that Toaster is a confirmed Town is nonsensical. You were the one that tried to twist the meaning of my words to suggest chainlynching. That's your pathetic attempt to debunk the statistics, which make up a small portion of my defense. Even if they were gone, I would still be right her, defending Toaster. Got that? I said it. I would still do it even if these statistics were wrong. Wanna know why? Because I know what Toaster did was pro-Town, and I know you wouldn't waste your time trying to lynch without evidence someone that was pro-Town on your scumteam.
#4: There was ONE VOTE AWAY FROM AN EXTENSION.
#5: All games with 16 players have at least one Kook. Good call for pointing it out.
Argembarger:I enjoy the contribution.
As for the Kook thing, Paranormal 14 had 10 players, 3 of which were scum. This led to a powerful Town, and canceled out Kooks. Many of the other games, however, have had similar numbers of players and scum counts.
As for the jokes, I suppose that the only time I really used it was on Janus. Book joking was mostly because he was already scummy.
Book:#1: Your proof of no Kooks is the most outliering point possible. It had 3 scum vs. 7(6?) town. It had 33% scum instead of the accepted 25%. I'm going to go with the more logical one here. And besides, the statistics were a MINOR POINT.
#2: I cannot know the number of Kooks unless I had the Intel. I knew, however, that Meph uses the Kook as a balance measure for other roles. If he's 1 off or so on the power scale, he'll just add a Kook. The truth is that I'm 100% positive that there is at least one Kook. In fact, I can argue that there is more than just Dopps and Town by my having a power role.
#3: Again, you never made a real attack on Toaster. You OMGUSed me for attacking you.
#4: The passive aggressive point you make at the end. If you think I'm scum, then vote me. You're going after Leafsnail, who is using the same information I'm bringing up. Obviously, you don't want me gone, as I'm a constant source of activity for you. Oh, and because if I were dead, people would know I'm town. Clearly, if I'm scum, I'm obviously covering for my buddies over here by making you vote me.
#5: It's not going to matter a whole lot, really. You're going to get shot tonight, if you don't get lynched.
I had a nice post going this morning but had to abandon it for 2 hours to try and get something scanned, then got my hair cut, then had a hang out session, and then had chess.
So, that'll get finished tomorrow. I'm tired now and am doing some homework. Just in case you're wondering, you groovy dogs. Time to boogaloo on outta here.
Yeah, yeah, you may be the coolest person ever, you groovy dog, but you're still scum and I won't let you get away with active lurking. You'd better have something useful to say soon.
8-P
Active lurking? Not only is it the weekend (I got rather busy on Friday, due to unexpected things happening, and Saturday was filled by Friday activities), but if you're going to call that active lurking, then you might as well call out Pandarsenic for actually lurking.
WHY?
Yeah. Rather good question. I'm feeling quite bad now.
Top 3:
Dariush
Web/Book, of which Web's not likely to be the exterminator, and Book is.
Toaster
Then'd come probably Mr. P, and Leafsnail.
What is this? How is it Web/Book? Are we tied?
First, are you serious? I gave plenty of reasoning! The biggest being HE STALLED THE LYNCH!
A wordless vote is bad for discussion. Why you wanted to start without any discussion at all alludes me. In fact, you should probably tell everyone why you felt it was acceptable to do so.
Because he needed votes for yesterday. In fact, there was a nice PM I sent him telling him he wasted the lynch. Some people may not have gotten that.
Also, if you didn't notice the phone symbol in the corner, I was posting from my phone. Not only that, but if you can't look back a page or remember past the few days before, you either aren't paying attention or have a serious problem. Book deserves to be lynched today.
Author
Topic: Paranormal Mafia Round 18 - Game Over (Read 126122 times)