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[Happerry]

So ran into the action limit then? Because it upgraded its equipment the turn before the last turn.

[IronyOwl]

Just waiting on me then. Working on it as we speak.

[IronyOwl]

So, on the topic of trade:

I might have a use for water pearls, depending.
I might be willing to buy a high-quality ship, or at least some of the components for one. What price range were you thinking of?
I'm actually interested in money, oddly enough. If anyone can beat the 1 labor -> 6 money rate I can get from a guildhall, we might be able to do business.

In terms of what I have to trade in return, not much. I don't think I'll need my 2 regular horses anymore, and I could probably stand to lose one of my magic leather armors. I do of course have a decent array of magic gems to trade off, along with the rather unique power gauntlets and the finest armor in the land, but naturally you'd need to be well on my good side for me to sell you those.


Vanigo, are bonuses more efficient when they're spread out, in terms of the cost of acquiring them? Would something that gave +3 attack be more expensive in some way than something that gave +2 attack and +1 defense, or +1 attack, +1 defense, and +4 HP, for instance?

[Vanigo]

As a rule, yes, but only slightly.

[Nirur Torir]

I might be willing to buy a high-quality ship, or at least some of the components for one. What price range were you thinking of?

If you buy it soon, then you pay the labor fees as directly as possible, for one. Next turn, my average food intake should be 5.4/labor. As caravels cost 5 labor, that fee would be either 25 food or 17 food + (trade of 2 iron ingots for 2 iron ore). I'll accept a single substitute of 10 money for 5 food, due to me not having enough to buy more labor. Once my labor pool goes back up and I finish more advanced farms, the food requirement would be shiftable to other stuff.
Are you willing to trade a set of power gauntlets for the remaining cost?
A ramming prow would cost little more then the labor fee (+2 money, perhaps), and I'm not entirely sure I want to fortify the hull due to longbows being nearly as effective as naval ballista.

Mercenary costs for exploration are 3/turn for the bireme and 4/turn for the Vanquisher or a cog. We share the maps from exploration, but I will respect your claims to small or parts medium/large lands discovered. (It's not fair to let you claim an entire continent.) Additonally, a cog with a navigator would be made available to transport your settler(s), first one costs two credits rather then four. My captains will have standing orders to avoid from unexpected battles.

I'm highly unwilling to sell away my naval supremacy by giving you something able to really threaten my Vanquisher-class, but I'd be willing to negotiate for you financing a ship with a cheap mercenary contract only voided at your discretion or by you going to war with me. You'd get my shipwright bonus that way, although I doubt this is feasible with nothing threatening you by sea.

Oh, hey, since I don't have smelting yet, I should be having you smelt my metal for me when I need more. Does 8 food + 2 ore for 2 ingots work?

Vanigo: Could I infuse ballista bolts with Sky Diamonds?

[Vanigo]

Vanigo: Could I infuse ballista bolts with Sky Diamonds?

Hmm. Not with just sky diamonds; a ballista bolt seems too hefty for air magic alone to empower. (Yeah, there's no physical reason why not, but it's magic.) With animation, though, I'd let you make an air/earth empowered ballista.

[IronyOwl]

If you buy it soon, then you pay the labor fees as directly as possible, for one. Next turn, my average food intake should be 5.4/labor. As caravels cost 5 labor, that fee would be either 25 food or 17 food + (trade of 2 iron ingots for 2 iron ore). I'll accept a single substitute of 10 money for 5 food, due to me not having enough to buy more labor. Once my labor pool goes back up and I finish more advanced farms, the food requirement would be shiftable to other stuff.

I guess 5 food per labor is a reasonable baseline, since if we assume you took them off food production to build it that's probably the amount you'd be giving up.

Are you willing to trade a set of power gauntlets for the remaining cost?

That'd largely mean I was trading the labor and knowledge for a set of power gauntlets for just the knowledge for a caravel. However, as I'm not interested in just the caravel, perhaps it'd be better to look at the whole set in any case.

A ramming prow would cost little more then the labor fee (+2 money, perhaps), and I'm not entirely sure I want to fortify the hull due to longbows being nearly as effective as naval ballista.

I have no direct military interest in the ship, so it doesn't have to be state of the art in that regard. I do want it fully able to defend itself when under attack, however.

More importantly, I'm interested in a sea-charmed keel and windcaller sails to go with it. I can understand some hesitance to equip me that nicely, but I'm only interested in one of them.

Assuming you're willing, I also think we should try to trade relatively unique goods on relatively even terms, rather than me buying things only Xeniice can produce with vast quantities of food or something. This might be slightly tricky because my obvious advantage is the power gauntlets and you really like magic resistance, but we might still be able to come up with something, like heavy armor or smelting at my labor costs.

As for smelting ingots for food, I don't think so, since it'd either mean I was just stockpiling it, or I was depending on your regular metal needs to sustain my population, which isn't really sustainable. I'm open to doing it for a more permanent type of compensation, however.

Mercenary costs for exploration are 3/turn for the bireme and 4/turn for the Vanquisher or a cog. We share the maps from exploration, but I will respect your claims to small or parts medium/large lands discovered. (It's not fair to let you claim an entire continent.) Additonally, a cog with a navigator would be made available to transport your settler(s), first one costs two credits rather then four. My captains will have standing orders to avoid from unexpected battles.

This is somewhat tempting, but at 4 money per 6 tiles I'm probably better off just making some galleys when I get the tech, which shouldn't be too long. Paying you that kind of money to basically just get in on things you were going to do anyway is also kind of questionable.

[Nirur Torir]

The problems I see are twofold: one, I spent too much population on colonies, leaving me unwilling to spend an entire turn's worth of labor on a trade and unable to spare the food producers from increasing prosperity to meet the upkeep costs. Two, trading away my temporary ability to explore the seas alone is not something I wish to do lightly.

I mostly need food at this point for money, which I suppose you could supply if you're willing to part with some.

Let's say that a caravel hull is worth 6 labor, and the magic keel is worth 3 + 2 gems(or 3 labor) + 2 money. Make an offer for it, although heavy armor isn't particularly worth the enchantment costs to me as a replacement for my current magic medium armor.
Additionally, I'd like the rights to explore the open sea past you. Should I find anything, we'll discuss who owns the rights to colonize what, and an oceangoing cog will be made available for allowing you to colonize anything we decide is yours. (Building a colony slightly offshore of somebody else's capital usually is not an act of peace.)

If you only need coastal exploration/power, the coast-bound galleys are available for 1 money/turn. They're more expendable, and will be allowed to fight if they think they can win.

As for smelting ingots for food, I don't think so, since it'd either mean I was just stockpiling it, or I was depending on your regular metal needs to sustain my population, which isn't really sustainable. I'm open to doing it for a more permanent type of compensation, however.

It's basically +2 food for you if you shift a worker away from a +6 food farm. Alternatively, I have extra wood and stone if you're interested in those.

Paying you that kind of money to basically just get in on things you were going to do anyway is also kind of questionable.

Actually, I have no intention of exploring past your lands unless you explicitly allow it.

[IronyOwl]

The problems I see are twofold: one, I spent too much population on colonies, leaving me unwilling to spend an entire turn's worth of labor on a trade and unable to spare the food producers from increasing prosperity to meet the upkeep costs.

I see. I had assumed the food was for population growth, not boosting taxes. It's much, much more efficient for me to just hand you raw cash than to give you food to produce a bit of your own with. The labor cost of a caravel would seem to be 6 money by this metric, for instance, which is infinitely easier for me to part with than 25 food.

Let's say that a caravel hull is worth 6 labor, and the magic keel is worth 3 + 2 gems(or 3 labor) + 2 money. Make an offer for it, although heavy armor isn't particularly worth the enchantment costs to me as a replacement for my current magic medium armor.

You know, the more I think about the 4/turn thing the better a deal it sounds like. I'm not sure I'm completely sold, but I'm definitely thinking about it.

I guess one major question is, how many Vanquishers do you intend to have? If I could spend a lot of money to chain-explore quickly, that might make it more attractive than exploring for free one turn at a time.

For the sake of argument though, how would you feel about 40 money and 3 magic gems, for the caravel hull, magic keel, and magic sails?

Additionally, I'd like the rights to explore the open sea past you. Should I find anything, we'll discuss who owns the rights to colonize what, and an oceangoing cog will be made available for allowing you to colonize anything we decide is yours. (Building a colony slightly offshore of somebody else's capital usually is not an act of peace.)

Well that's kind of convenient, because I'd like the rights to build and use a road right on or next to Mount Skyreave. I should probably talk to Happerry about that too.

Anyway, I kind of like the idea of Sunstone and Xeniice working together to explore and divvy up the unknown parts of the world, so I suppose we can work something out. I'm assuming this was more mentioned because you thought I wasn't going to take the shared mercenary deal, though, which might happen after all.

I'm still thinking I'd want several Vanquishers, or their less combat-oriented equivalent, going at once, though. Would you be interested in somehow having me finance your construction of more so that you can then start renting them to me, presumably through some kind of loan or credit system? What would be your ideal setup in general for a potentially long-term joint exploring agreement?

As for smelting ingots for food, I don't think so, since it'd either mean I was just stockpiling it, or I was depending on your regular metal needs to sustain my population, which isn't really sustainable. I'm open to doing it for a more permanent type of compensation, however.

It's basically +2 food for you if you shift a worker away from a +6 food farm. Alternatively, I have extra wood and stone if you're interested in those.

I'm not going to have any +6 farms shortly, so it'd only be +1. Given that you'll soon have mostly 5-7 food tiles soon as well, it might be fairer to pay 9 or 10 food, since that'd be around a 2 food profit for each of us.

[Nirur Torir]

I see. I had assumed the food was for population growth, not boosting taxes. It's much, much more efficient for me to just hand you raw cash than to give you food to produce a bit of your own with. The labor cost of a caravel would seem to be 6 money by this metric, for instance, which is infinitely easier for me to part with than 25 food.

That little. Wow. I really need to get guild technology.

I guess one major question is, how many Vanquishers do you intend to have? If I could spend a lot of money to chain-explore quickly, that might make it more attractive than exploring for free one turn at a time.

I'm still thinking I'd want several Vanquishers, or their less combat-oriented equivalent, going at once, though. Would you be interested in somehow having me finance your construction of more so that you can then start renting them to me, presumably through some kind of loan or credit system? What would be your ideal setup in general for a potentially long-term joint exploring agreement?

Probably only one Vanquisher, but I'd be willing to get up to three lesser "fast" caravels if you wish to hire them. 4 money/turn, or 3 money/turn if you help subsidize them (10 money each.) I should be able to build at least one every other turn, with the rest of my labor upgrading my food infrastructure.
I'm thinking a rough 50/50 split of resource sites.

For the sake of argument though, how would you feel about 40 money and 3 magic gems, for the caravel hull, magic keel, and magic sails?

Right now, no, though it is a bit tempting. The money would be gone in a few turns, and I have no immediate need for Ember Rubies.

Well that's kind of convenient, because I'd like the rights to build and use a road right on or next to Mount Skyreave. I should probably talk to Happerry about that too.

I guess it doesn't really hurt, but why?

I'm not going to have any +6 farms shortly, so it'd only be +1. Given that you'll soon have mostly 5-7 food tiles soon as well, it might be fairer to pay 9 or 10 food, since that'd be around a 2 food profit for each of us.

I suppose it would be more fair for me to put two workers getting food, and then have us split the bonus food equally.

[IronyOwl]

I'm thinking a rough 50/50 split of resource sites.

But how would mapping figure into that?

Well that's kind of convenient, because I'd like the rights to build and use a road right on or next to Mount Skyreave. I should probably talk to Happerry about that too.

I guess it doesn't really hurt, but why?

I intend to build a road along that mountain range, giving me access to, well, everything, but most notably the south of the continent without going through the middle of Goblinland. Mount Skyreave complicated things in that I'll have to go through Gnomeland instead, but depending on how you intend to spread it might still be the edge rather than the middle.

[Vanigo]

Just so everyone knows, I'm planning to change the movement rules at the start of the next age. Garrisoned units will have a zone of control that prevents other civs' units from insta-moving; they'll only be able to move one square/movement a turn.

[Nirur Torir]

I like how, despite suffering two defeats, including the most powerful warship on the planet, my people are drunk enough not to overly care.

Did IronyOwl establish contact with me? The maps look questionable.

Will either of these ways work to map an island?
1) Cog + navigators + transported mappers (If so, how many teams on different islands can one cog support per turn?)
2) Caravel escorts a galley with cartographer specialists to an island (Can I escort multiple galleys to islands that are very close together? It IS a fast ship.)
Similarly, can my caravel safely escort lesser ships across the ocean if it moves slowly?

I'm thinking a rough 50/50 split of resource sites.

But how would mapping figure into that?

I guess whoever maps the tiles gets the first claim to the site, but we may need to renegotiate that if one of us gets bad luck.

Well that's kind of convenient, because I'd like the rights to build and use a road right on or next to Mount Skyreave. I should probably talk to Happerry about that too.

I guess it doesn't really hurt, but why?

I intend to build a road along that mountain range, giving me access to, well, everything, but most notably the south of the continent without going through the middle of Goblinland. Mount Skyreave complicated things in that I'll have to go through Gnomeland instead, but depending on how you intend to spread it might still be the edge rather than the middle.

Alright, then. Go for it.

[Vanigo]

Did IronyOwl establish contact with me? The maps look questionable.

No, he hasn't quite reached the diamond site yet.

Will either of these ways work to map an island?
1) Cog + navigators + transported mappers (If so, how many teams on different islands can one cog support per turn?)
2) Caravel escorts a galley with cartographer specialists to an island (Can I escort multiple galleys to islands that are very close together? It IS a fast ship.)
Similarly, can my caravel safely escort lesser ships across the ocean if it moves slowly?

You don't actually need cartographers on pure ocean tiles...
As for escorting other ships, no.

[lemon10]

Could I use energy magic and ember rubies to gain flaming arrows?

I think that would fall under infusion, actually.

So i could use infusion and sun amber to make flaming arrows?

On another note, could I have my watermill back (instead of a windmill), since it looks better?
EDITEDIT: also, my population grew to 31, not 30

It looks like you didn't notice that post at all  (so that means that my population was 32 this turn).

On another note, I have a proposal to make the turns go faster in general (starting next turn):
If someone posts their turn within 18 hours of the previous turn ending being posted (excluding battles they were in and stuff like that), then they get a +1 food bonus.
If someone posts their turn more then 4 days after the previous turn ends then they get a -1 food bonus.
The bonus/penalty isn't very big, but I think that it would do a lot to help the game go faster, since people would have a (slight) incentive not to take a week to post their turns.

EDIT: I also bought a labor last turn, so i only have 12 money left (you screwed up on your math twice, I had +6 without buying labor, and only -4 after I bought it)

EDITEDIT:

Just so everyone knows, I'm planning to change the movement rules at the start of the next age. Garrisoned units will have a zone of control that prevents other civs' units from insta-moving; they'll only be able to move one square/movement a turn.

That seems like it will be a nerf to watchwards (well not strictly a nerf, but if you Garrison a city with a single unit will stop them from attacking it for a turn, then watchwards aren't quite so useful), mabey increase its radius back up to three to account for it?