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[NW_Kohaku]

Free plants would obviously float around, being free from gravity and silly things like need to keep their roots attached to them. 

[Darvi]

Free plants would obviously float around, being free from gravity and silly things like need to keep their roots attached to them.

World of Warcraft's way ahead of ya

Murder: everything's extremely aggressive. Even the plants. Especially the plants. But they're pathetically weak when it comes to defense.

[NW_Kohaku]

This feedback system would also ensure that you either balance the spheres or you live with the consequences. 
Despite my liking for the immediately lethal stuff DF has, in some cases, you should be allowed to continue with the fort.  Magma sphere going wild would kill dwarves pretty quick but good or wealth spheres shouldn't. 
At the same time, you don't want to polarize the game into "spheres that are good to have" and "spheres you avoid".  Each sphere should bring it's own advantages and it's own problems. 

Nature and good spheres could result in too many unicorns and elves moving in.  If that wasn't bad enough, plants might start breaking down your walls to "return them to the earth". 
Magma spheres could give your dwarves fire resistance and in extremes, burn everything slowly, which your dwarves survive better.  At the same time, you still have to treat an immense amount of tiny burns.  And deal with traders frying on map entry. 
Wealth spheres could lead to dwarves stealing from each other, or working themselves to the bone to earn more wealth.  Nobles get too uppity with mandate demands (platinum statue x10) and everyone's room quality expectations rise. 

So yes, make the consequences balanced, make the spheres compete to terraform the area.  And by terraforming, they impose their consequence.  What the player makes of it, weaponized, industrialized or otherwise, is up to us. 

This is part of what I'd really like to see, though.  Too much of anything should be bad for you... somehow.

An overabundant Justice sphere might make people go all Knight Templar, and start executing each other for not blessing others when they sneeze... or if it's the more "social justice" kind of justice, they all get too concerned with making sure everyone is exactly equal to everyone else, and not being willing to make any sort of decisions or perform any work that might put them out of line with others.

Overpowered scholarly spheres might turn your fortress into a bunch of hyper-analyticial armchair philosophers, who would meet an invading goblin horde with treatises on why their methodology of attacking all dwarven outposts is an unsustainable and ultimately quite foolhardy method of maintaining social bala-- OH GOD MY SPLEEN!  WHY WOULD YOU STAB ME THROUGH MY LOWER LEFT FLOATING RIB WITH YOUR OBVIOUSLY INFERIOR QUALITY IRON SPEAR WHEN I WAS READING MY TREATISE ON TH-- *thud*

So, basically, Wealth sphere might make some sort of Midas Touch problem, where the things living around you are all apparently fantastically valuable, but generally useless.


EDIT: The problem with these spheres is that there's just too many of them, and they're way too specialized.

Even if we only have 5 plants and creatures that are special to one particular sphere, that's 640 new creatures and plants... which basically outnumbers the amount of creatures already  in DF by a couple times.

[jseah]

Actually, I would like to revise my suggestions. 

The spheres should only serve as a power source, nothing else.  No direct effect on dwarves, nothing other than allowing xenosynthesis organisms to grow. 

It's those organisms that have strange properties that exert the influence of the sphere and encourage the sphere's spread.  They also carry the consequences and advantages of the sphere.  No set influences like making dwarves resist fire by fiat.  Fire plants and animals spread heat adaptation syndromes (body temperature rise, melting and combustion points of tissues rise etc.) as well as the heat itself. 
And since they need high temperatures to grow, they grow only near magma or other such fire plants that have already heated the area up.  Hopefully, boiling water bodies makes it in by then. 

What I hope to see is the spheres "warring" against each other by having opposing terraforming tendencies and trying to make the environment they're in suitable for their own life, which happens to exclude others. 
It gives the sense that the spheres are something much bigger than the dwarves and something you guide and do not control.  They're literally forces of nature that the dwarves influence subtly. 

eg.
Wealth plants might grow gold or silver leaves that could be collected and melted down for the metal.  They're pretty inedible however, unless you're a wealth-sphere creature, in which case you have to eat gold to live.  At the same time, the wealth sphere plants spread metals into the soil (synthesized from thin air), which kills everything slowly via syndromes, including your dwarves. 
They might also like sand and will convert finer soils into sandier ones, inadvertently killing other plants off.  Extreme conditions could get syndromes that start converting dwarves' skin into metal, which will slow them down and armour them, and if uncontrolled will eventually statue them (an expensive statue, but it cost a dwarf). 

So....
3. The main effects of spheres should not be directly programmed set effects, but instead a result of contact with that sphere's influence (ie. plants and animals)

EDIT:
As for too many plants, you can merge similar spheres together. 
Life-Light-Nature-Good
Death-Darkness-Evil
Wealth-Stone-Mountains
Marriage-Justice-Knowledge-*all civilization related spheres*

[optimumtact]

Yeah, I'm sure that the sphere system could be reworked to fit more with the ideas that we are putting out here.

[Buttery_Mess]

As far as I'm concerned, dwarves should only be able access magic through artifacts and maybe alchemy.

Let's save magic discussions until after Dwarf Mode is 'done'. But, I look forward to building wizard's towers in Human Town mode.

[NW_Kohaku]

Boundaries - Wild Yukaris roam wild, hungering for pineapple steaks.  Fear the hungry ghosts, which will devour dwarves whole.


Childbirth - peachtrees grow where the peaches give birth to more peaches.  Eating them makes you pregnant, and forces you to give birth almost immediately.  Severely remeccomended men not eat those things.  Female warriors seem to favor these as a means of generating extra armor quickly, and notice no ill effects in repeatedly spitting out more dwarves.

Sorry, the fact that "Fertility", "Pregnancy", "Birth", "Children", "Family", AND "Marriage" are all separate spheres always made me wonder why there would be such a need to split hairs as to differentiate "Birth" magic from "Pregnancy" magic.  How can you really increase the power of "Birth" spheres without also going through the whole "Pregnancy" thing first? 


Anyway, I'm not sure that having the xenosynthetic microorganisms actually reinforce the sphere necessarily is the best way to do things, either. 

Like I said earlier, chemosynthetic lifeforms are bound to the locations where "Black Smoker" vents are located, and cannot venture too far from those volcanic hotspots.  The chemosynthetic life forms are bound to their source of energy. 

A magic creature like a unicorn or a zombie might have an ability to walk out of its sphere, and its nourishing energy source temporarily, but it might be more like a battery charge, or holding your breath, you have to go back to partake of that life-giving energy once again.

Now, with that said, creatures who can learn how to increase the prevalence of whatever energy they rely upon might exist.  Something like a Titan would be based on one or maybe a couple spheres, and be capable of spreading them, just ripping holes in reality to let more magic leak in.  Lairs of semi-intelligent magical beasts might generate their own sphere energy to feed upon, corrupting or purifying the land around it with their influence.  They might even have temples to their aspects, or be quasi-deities of their sphere in the case of some of the semi-megabeasts and megabeasts.

It would also make some sense that because they must be dedicated to their spheres in order to really take advantage of them, they might be like the spirits of Dragon Age, where they only understand their own tiny aspect of emotion or nature - Justice only sees actions as Just or Unjust.

As far as I'm concerned, dwarves should only be able access magic through artifacts and maybe alchemy.

Let's save magic discussions until after Dwarf Mode is 'done'. But, I look forward to building wizard's towers in Human Town mode.

This isn't really "dwarves" so much as how sphere-based biomes work.  It's not about wizards at all, just how a "xenosynthesis-based ecosystem" would relate to DF, especially caverns.

[Deimos56]

Right then. I'll throw a couple potential effects in.

For reference purposes, I'm using 'sentient being' instead of 'dwarf' because by the time this is in, we'll probably officially be able to play as most/all of the races.

Gambling would be a sphere that gains strength in many ways... It might not have an immediately appreciable effect on the local flora... although perhaps greedy animals will appear more often... But once the sphere has advanced enough, I'd imagine the plants would either grow something valuable that one would have to go through considerable risk to actually get off of them, or plants that grow fruit/resources/items/whatever that are somewhat randomized. Sentient beings living for extended periods of time under the influence of a strong Gambling sphere may be more prone to being risk-takers, etc.

I would imagine the sphere of Plants would be more of a... global sphere, with strong or weak pockets in areas like a rainforest or a desert, based partially on vegetation. I could see this, in terms of flora, as a sort of 'default' sphere at normal levels. However, in areas that somehow go far enough beyond natural levels of the sphere's influence, you might start seeing plant-based animals, or sentient beings suddenly begin photosynthesizing, which would help in aboveground situations, but would drastically hinder a group that lives in the dark... without alternative methods, anyway... hell, maybe that's why elves live on the surface...

The spheres of Light and Darkness would probably be tied to sources of light other than the day and night,  as the day/night cycle would make for constant changes otherwise. For example, if you favored cultivating fluorescent plants underground, you might see the sphere of light gain strength in your area... gradually, with the obvious converse. However, doing something like blotting out the sun would likely have a more drastic shift between the two. Darkness would most likely have shadowy beings and plants, where light would result in local flora and fauna naturally glowing at night or in the dark or whatever. These would be the sort of spheres that actually oppose each other in most cases.

Let's not go into what the sphere of Nightmares would cause, shall we?

The sphere of Salt... I honestly can't see much plant life being able to survive in this sort of sphere. Probably the sort that would heavily restrict you somehow... Thoughts on possible benefits? Beyond a surplus of sodium in all the food and meat that's unlikely to ever spoil?

Music would be a sphere brought into power through... well, music. Bands and instruments and the like. At high levels, sentient beings may be more musical in personality and aptitude, and the flora would begin to emit their own music. But let's face it... that's going to attract so many predators and invaders... or particularly music-loving titans...
Modification: Instrument shaped plants?...

[NW_Kohaku]

Music could have whistling reeds. 

Maybe planting several varieties of music-related plants could create symphonies that play songs in the slightest breeze that match the mood of the people nearby.

If a depressed dwarf walks by, the flora would start emulating the violin that is playing only for him.   

[jseah]

Anyway, I'm not sure that having the xenosynthetic microorganisms actually reinforce the sphere necessarily is the best way to do things, either. 

Well, that's why they're xenosynthetic right?  Spheres that "attempt" to get rid of each other (and catch dwarves in the middle) just appears more dynamic to me than an arbitrary score that has arbitrary effects. 

[3]

EDIT: The problem with these spheres is that there's just too many of them, and they're way too specialized.

Yeah, I'm sure that the sphere system could be reworked to fit more with the ideas that we are putting out here.

Toady's already specifically stated that the current plan isn't to use the sphere system as it stands for this sort of thing but another permutation of the concept (the post is lost somewhere in the FotF thread), presumably a "lower-level", more generalised one.

[NW_Kohaku]

Funny, I searched the DF Talks, FotF threads, and forums in general for anything Toady said about "sphere" before making this thread, and didn't come up with anything like that...  Can you point to something more specific, or some sort of key phrase you know was used, or something?

[expwnent]

What about mundane surface farming that doesn't rely on magic? Would all plants necessarily be magical?

This seems like it could be a lot of fun. My main concern is that it might shift the focus of the game too much toward agriculture/magic spheres.

[jseah]

True enough. 
Spheres that affect the environment should do things to the environment.  Spheres that are overarching concepts like good and evil should affect everything, not just the environment. 
Civilization spheres like war, or wealth shouldn't really have anything to do with farming but should instead affect how dwarves think and act. 

I still think spheres should act through a specific actor instead of randomly doing things to your dwarves. 

[NW_Kohaku]

What about mundane surface farming that doesn't rely on magic? Would all plants necessarily be magical?

This seems like it could be a lot of fun. My main concern is that it might shift the focus of the game too much toward agriculture/magic spheres.

This is a spin-off thread of the Improved Farming, Rebooted: Violate the Earth! thread.  "Mundane" farming is already pretty extensively covered over there in a way that intends to be as accurate to real-life farming as possible without requiring players get a degree in soil science to figure out what is going on.  The problem is that caverns are just plain magical, and as such, magical farming systems are logically demanded.

To an extent, the point really IS to make agriculture more of a focus of the game, at least to the degree that the player wants to let agriculture become a focus, since farming is just simply too shallow a system as it stands, without forcing players to spend more time on farming than they really want to if all they want to do is kill things and ignore as many other systems in the game as they can get away with.

With that said, I'm actually trying to create a sort of "suggestions web" of several interwoven steps that can be taken to make DF a game with less of a learning plateau and complexity and bredth in gameplay without any depth to that bredth, and to add more depth to the game's many different component pieces, and work the game to having more end-game complexity and challenge instead of just providing an upfront "hump" you have to clear before the game ceases to be any challenge, and just lets you play around. 

Improved Farming will involve the lumber, fishing, hunting, ranching, farming, herbalism, cooking, and brewing all within its purview.  I haven't made any thread of my own on it, but the Abundance of Resources thread covers mineral and metal wealth, and how its complexity can be improved and given more depth.  Class Warfare involves making dwarven societies, and the tragically shallow "happiness" meter more complex.  These three fields of Soil, Stone, and Dwarves represent the three major internal concerns/resources that players can concern themselves with.

The upcoming Caravan and Army and eventual Kingdom arcs all make matters external to the fortress more complex and compelling, as does the reworking of Siege mechanics.  I am working on my own thread on making this more complex, but Dwarven Imperialism is what I am using as a starting point in that endeavor.

For the dedicated megaproject builder, however, the best place to look is the legendary Improved Mechanics thread.

So yes, I'm trying to make the game have more ability to focus upon agriculture/magic, but there are a great many different things that DF players can focus on, based upon their personally favored style of play. 

(Oh, and I'm also planning on doing an Alchemy thread after this that would involve combining some of these magical flora and farming into creating more practical solutions to dwarven problems.  When we have an expanded farming system that can make certain kinds of plants prohibitively difficult to cultivate, while basic food is relatively easy to grow, we can then start talking about alchemical components that use base plants or difficult-to-raise creatures being able to create really powerful effects because being able to create that sort of alchemical mixture represents a signficant investment in time, dwarven labor, and resources.  So, a military player might just train plenty of replacement dwarves with harsh training to handle difficult recurring seiges, while farmer/alchemist players would respond to a difficult seige with catapults loaded with glass spheres filled with a napalm-like oil that burns on contact with air.  The basic gist of it is that different systems having more demanding complexity to master would not interfere with the different playstyles of different players.)

Wow... what a complex answer to a simple question.  But yeah, I am writing a lot and doing a lot because I think that, in a sense, DF is starting to paint itself into a corner where it can't really expand itself as a game without first revisiting some of its basic concepts, and putting in some depth to its more meaningless numbers so that there is real meaningful difference in the things that are to be put in compared to the things that have come before.