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[Lex Talionias]

I love how, when I give out all these options, slavery is the only thing we think of.

I guess I have to go all PC and stuff, now, thanks to having let this genie out of its bottle...

First off, I kind of glossed over it earlier, but in America, the contact of the Europeans with the Native Americans had a profound impact on the philosophy of the day.  It took people from the Divine Right arguments that everyone should be subservient to the state and the king in a pyramid of social status against which it was literally evil to question your place to having the whole notion of social contracts and re-emphasizing self determination and individual liberties.  This was in part because many people, especially those at the lowest rungs of society, found living with the "savages" would actually promise them a much better life in terms of not just liberties, but also that they tended to eat better and live longer than they would under the crushing poverty they were exposed to.  (Staring at a wall all day next to a pile of free food sure beats hauling for The Man from dusk to dawn for pennies.) It was, in fact, one of the hidden motivators for America to drive the natives back from their frontiers - all the slaves and indentured servants and lackeys would just run away if over the next hill, they could find a better life.  Then who's left to do chamberpot scrubbing duties?  They're certainly not doing it themselves! 

Of course, as of yet, cultural shifts in DF are not modeled.  The "Fantasy World Simulator" has a long way to go, yet.

The other thing to keep in mind is that a good chunk of Native Americans were peacable farmers who probably could have been integrated into European American society if the Europeans would have let them.  In James Loewen's Lies My Teacher Told Me, there is a section on how Cherokee peoples (in the area of the Georgia) would build European-style homes, and own property including 47 mills, 69 blacksmithies, 762 looms, and a whole list of livestock not worth mentioning.  The Europeans effectively sued to take away Native American property rights because they were afraid the Natives would become more wealthy than they were. (p130-2)

With that said, letting players who revel in their immorality try to one-up themselves in knowingly committing atrocities is part of what makes DF what it is.  I fully expect more people will enjoy trying to think of the worst possible things they can do even to totally pacifistic peoples, like, say, mermaids, than to genuinely try to act in a just or moral way just because acting morally makes them feel better about themselves or something (smug bastards), since the game's sure not giving you any reward for it.

I only bring it up because, well, reveling in horribly immoral actions against simulated people who feel no pain is all fine and good, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse for reveling in the prejudices and rationalizations of the real-life horrible immorality of the European settlers.

all i read hear is 'blah blah blah, im ashamed to be white'.

if your so big on history read up on european history and the 800 years of social, religious, intellectual and economical tyranny and abuse every white person on the planet suffered through except for about 2% of their population. just so you know where to look try googling "the dark ages".

the fact is that history sucks for everyone and the big bad white devils? well they got the harshest lot for the longest. yeah, a few privileged elite lived pretty well but they brought the whip down on everyone. being one layer higher in a pile of shit still leaves you in the middle of a pile of shit.

[NW_Kohaku]

Technically, wouldn't the general whippings of white people in the middle ages also be the fault of white people, merely of a different class?

Truth is truth, and history is history, regardless of whether you want to deny it or not.  What I quoted and cited were historical facts, not to make a point about how one skin color makes someone more evil than another skin color, but to make a point that there is a lot of misinformation about how "savage" the Native Americans are portrayed.  They weren't "incapable of understanding" that there would be reprisals for any attacks they made from a different town than the one they attacked, they just had very few options left.


EDIT:
I also notice you already posted your approval of the notion of this suggestion - that you can respond to these civlizations with cruelty, arrogance, indifference, benevolence (ha!), or however else you choose.  Nothing I have said since then changes that.  It is merely that I mentioned that things like disenfranchisement and confiscation of land and property were involved in the real-life interactions of European and Native Americans.  This, however, has nothing to do with what goes in DF.  After all, I'm sure the average DF player would take pride in doing worse than what happened to the real Native Americans.

[Cespinarve]

(The Spanish, French, and English ways of treating the Native Americans, respectively.)

I think you need to review your history, there, if you feel you can divide up the treatment of natives purely along national lines. I point out the number of South American indigenous casualties courtesy of the Spanish, and I have no idea where the historical revisionism of French-NA relationships began to be recast as some kind of "golden age", which is just bull, they were no better nor worse than their contemporaries. As usual, I'm just going to blame Quebecois seperatistes.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I love how, when I give out all these options, slavery is the only thing we think of.

I guess I have to go all PC and stuff, now, thanks to having let this genie out of its bottle...

First off, I kind of glossed over it earlier, but in America, the contact of the Europeans with the Native Americans had a profound impact on the philosophy of the day.  It took people from the Divine Right arguments that everyone should be subservient to the state and the king in a pyramid of social status against which it was literally evil to question your place to having the whole notion of social contracts and re-emphasizing self determination and individual liberties.  This was in part because many people, especially those at the lowest rungs of society, found living with the "savages" would actually promise them a much better life in terms of not just liberties, but also that they tended to eat better and live longer than they would under the crushing poverty they were exposed to.  (Staring at a wall all day next to a pile of free food sure beats hauling for The Man from dusk to dawn for pennies.) It was, in fact, one of the hidden motivators for America to drive the natives back from their frontiers - all the slaves and indentured servants and lackeys would just run away if over the next hill, they could find a better life.  Then who's left to do chamberpot scrubbing duties?  They're certainly not doing it themselves! 

Of course, as of yet, cultural shifts in DF are not modeled.  The "Fantasy World Simulator" has a long way to go, yet.

The other thing to keep in mind is that a good chunk of Native Americans were peacable farmers who probably could have been integrated into European American society if the Europeans would have let them.  In James Loewen's Lies My Teacher Told Me, there is a section on how Cherokee peoples (in the area of the Georgia) would build European-style homes, and own property including 47 mills, 69 blacksmithies, 762 looms, and a whole list of livestock not worth mentioning.  The Europeans effectively sued to take away Native American property rights because they were afraid the Natives would become more wealthy than they were. (p130-2)

With that said, letting players who revel in their immorality try to one-up themselves in knowingly committing atrocities is part of what makes DF what it is.  I fully expect more people will enjoy trying to think of the worst possible things they can do even to totally pacifistic peoples, like, say, mermaids, than to genuinely try to act in a just or moral way just because acting morally makes them feel better about themselves or something (smug bastards), since the game's sure not giving you any reward for it.

I only bring it up because, well, reveling in horribly immoral actions against simulated people who feel no pain is all fine and good, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse for reveling in the prejudices and rationalizations of the real-life horrible immorality of the European settlers.

all i read hear is 'blah blah blah, im ashamed to be white'.

if your so big on history read up on european history and the 800 years of social, religious, intellectual and economical tyranny and abuse every white person on the planet suffered through except for about 2% of their population. just so you know where to look try googling "the dark ages".

the fact is that history sucks for everyone and the big bad white devils? well they got the harshest lot for the longest. yeah, a few privileged elite lived pretty well but they brought the whip down on everyone. being one layer higher in a pile of shit still leaves you in the middle of a pile of shit.

All I read here is "Blah blah blah I don't know how to use proper punctuation and grammatical diacritics" My history problems aside, it was a perfectly reasonable post.

[noob]

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[NW_Kohaku]

(The Spanish, French, and English ways of treating the Native Americans, respectively.)

I think you need to review your history, there, if you feel you can divide up the treatment of natives purely along national lines. I point out the number of South American indigenous casualties courtesy of the Spanish, and I have no idea where the historical revisionism of French-NA relationships began to be recast as some kind of "golden age", which is just bull, they were no better nor worse than their contemporaries. As usual, I'm just going to blame Quebecois seperatistes.

Well, to defend myself, let me grab a little of the context, there:

You could have missionaries that try to "bring the light of civilization to the primitives", have hunters exploring the caverns who trade with cavern civs to get more pelts or the like, or just shove them off the land because you want it.  (The Spanish, French, and English ways of treating the Native Americans, respectively.) 

While I certainly admit it isn't consistant, after having come out trying to correct a misconception a few posts back, I wasn't trying to start a talk about Native American history here, and was just giving out some tongue-in-cheek references and very sweeping generalizations for the purposes of humor and to illustrate the idea.  I certainly hope that someone wouldn't take what I said about the Spanish being on a mission to "bring the light of civilization to the primitives" seriously. 

With that said, I honestly don't know nearly as much about the French relationship with the Native Americans as I have read about the English and Spanish.  However, even with the French, I was only trying to imply a self-centered indifference, not a "golden age" of any sort.

Regardless, this is still not very relevant to the topic of what would be an enjoyable gameplay mechanic for Dwarf Fortress, and I can't see this line of conversation going anywhere particularly good.


So, to get back to what Solace had said, what would you want as a way of dealing with every foreign civ that might happen to be co-occupying the embark, which might be different from what you would necessarily do with the fish-people. 

Also, considering some of what's in Army Arc/Kingdom Arc, we are supposed to be able to have expeditions of our own that send back supplies, so perhaps having the ability to do this with fish-people in the nearby caverns might be possible.

[Cespinarve]

Regardless, this is still not very relevant to the topic of what would be an enjoyable gameplay mechanic for Dwarf Fortress, and I can't see this line of conversation going anywhere particularly good.

I am curious as to this assertion of yours that 'relevancy' is what spurs discussion in Bay 12 forum threads.

[NW_Kohaku]

I am curious as to this assertion of yours that 'relevancy' is what spurs discussion in Bay 12 forum threads.

Of course not, it's just a card I can play to make my Topic Change maneuver have a higher probability of success.

[Lex Talionias]

the point of my post was to criticize you brining up real world politics to a fantasy game, something you only did as you have white guilt. until you brought up your shame ridden politically correct BS into this thread the idea of it being racist didn't even occur to me mostly as i really cant find a way of looking at someones skin color and seeing them as a whole different species in the exact same way i don't feel bad coz some people im not even related to had the same skin color and did... well ANYTHING. good or bad it aint my fault/problem/pride/responsibility, for better or worse.

 i really don't care if someone squeals on about metaphorical racism coz we treat the NPCs we don't directly control just as poorly as the ones we do directly control. honestly i would love the option of some human, elf and goblin slaves just so the hate love is shared evenly.


also could the gamma nazi please fuck off to a grammar forum?
try this one: http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?nav=messages&webtag=ab-grammar im not sure if it's good because it bored the crap out of me not 5secs after i clicked the link.

so it should be perfect for you.

but just for the record asshole i do have asperger syndrome and i couldn't learn grammar if i tried for a thousand years, though i do know a bit about language and how all the grammar in the world is worthless if you can already understand me in the 1st place which it seems everyone already can.

[NobodyPro]

Yes but it helps to show how you were expressing your opinion. For example, I read your post as someone with anger issues half-shouting at someone trying to not offend others that may not view his suggestions in the same way you do. Also, I don't remember him ever saying that he is white so you might be projecting a bit there buddy.

Anyway. The idea itself is great, all the implications and uses would liven up the discovery of caverns to make them more noticeable. Perhaps there could be a chance that they turn out to be an outpost for a more civilized society, along with all the repercussions of your actions (trade, discover, get liaison or kill, wait, underground siege).

[Artzbacher]

NW_Kohaku: I feel that historical analogies are pretty relevant here, even if some players are prone to getting offended. But since the suggestions posted ITT would make such awesome additions to the game I agree with you that the white guilt/exploitation sidetrack should stop here, since the thread will derail otherwise.

I wouldn't like for cavern-dwellers to become too intelligent seeing as we already have elves, dwarves, goblins and humans. They should be primitive, but still able to learn from and mimic other civilizations. Right now they just stand there, occasionally killing a forgotten beast or two.

It would be great if they had their own religions as well... perhaps demanding a dwarven child as tribute, for sacrificial purposes?

[Cespinarve]

also could the gamma nazi please fuck off to a grammar forum?

God, those Gamma Nazis. The Alpha and Beta radiation populations in Warsaw just never recovered from their decimation after the second world war.

I know, I know, don't feed the troll. But my problem wasn't really your grammar, it was the mean and vicious content of your post written by a blameless NW_Kohaku. The Asperger autistics I've met over the years have been pedantic sticklers when it came to language, while having problems understanding the nuances of social relationships. You, however, come off as a classic case of Gabriel's G.I.F.T.

[NW_Kohaku]

Lex: You were fine with the first few posts I made, which did mention (again, somewhat sweeping generalizations of) historic treatment of native peoples, and showed interest in the idea.  You only got angry about "bringing up politics" when I made a reference to a quoted and cited historic fact. 

I could say something about native tribes fighting back and there being massacres on both sides (even if you can just look at the results and see who got massacred more often), I could go into my discomfort with the often male warrior-dominated version of society many tribes had, I could even go into some of the horrifying things the Aztecs did, and make it so that I wouldn't be called a "fanboy" of Native Americans... but why should I have to pretend as if both sides are always equivalently wrong or right? 

Why can't I say that some things are wrong or right, especially when armed with cited facts to back me up in it, without having to immediately talk about why some other percieved opposite force is equally wrong or right, just for "balance"?  If the problem with saying that maybe one time someone did something bad is that it is "PC", and "being PC" is wrong because it prevents people from being able to express honest opinions and confines open debate... Then isn't demanding that I cannot say something negative about one side without it being immediately demanded that I make some percieved "opposite side" be equally negative just as, if not even worse, a form of "Political Correctness"?

[Max White]

Oh no, did we get into some sort of mud debate on a perfectly good suggestion?
We kill elves because they like trees, by drowning them in magma, so I think slavery is the less of our many evils.
I also fully support more diverse interactions between these races then just assimilation.

Problem?

[NW_Kohaku]

Oh no, did we get into some sort of mud debate on a perfectly good suggestion?
We kill elves because they like trees, by drowning them in magma, so I think slavery is the less of our many evils.
I also fully support more diverse interactions between these races then just assimilation.

Problem?

Are you sure?  Genocide is at least just an evil you perpetrate once, and get over with, while slavery is continued for generations tha--

Oh, wait, right, talking about the game.  Um, no. 

Why not suggest other ways in which you would ideally be able to interact, though?

[Max White]

Are you sure?  Genocide is at least just an evil you perpetrate once, and get over with, while slavery is continued for generations tha--

Oh, wait, right, talking about the game.  Um, no. 

Why not suggest other ways in which you would ideally be able to interact, though?

So some will want little to do with you at all, but still be freindly.
Some will carry on the spirt of Asax and help out by attacking hostile intruders, but not much else (It is their land too, and they want to help defend!)
If toady extends the 'bustling town' thing to the underground, then they might even wander up to your trade depo every now and then with some hides and meat to see what you have to offer.
And some will go like calculas and get intergrated.

Well, that does cover the concept of a freind nation but useless nation, a military alliance and a trade alliance. Now what else is there to cover...
Nope, I can't think of anything else.