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Author Topic: Justifying Right-Wing Economics  (Read 7333 times)

nenjin

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Re: Justifying Right-Wing Economics
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2011, 06:43:47 pm »

Quote
Austrian economists reject empirical statistical methods, natural experiments and constructed experiments as tools applicable to economics, saying that while it is appropriate in the natural sciences where factors can be isolated in laboratory conditions, the actions of human beings are too complex for this "numerical" treatment as passive non-adaptive subjects. Instead one should isolate the logical processes of human action. Von Mises called this discipline "praxeology" – a term he adapted from Alfred Espinas (but which had been in use by others).
So uh... the Austrian School is great if you ignore reality?

A lot of economics is great if you're not looking at the big, 50-year picture of consequences for your actions. See: Oil. Food. Land Use. Ocean Use. Air Quality. Deforestation. Population growth. Disease vectors. The cost of supporting infrastructure. Human rights and personal liberty.
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Bouchart

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Re: Justifying Right-Wing Economics
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2011, 06:44:38 pm »

Keynesianism isn't working out too well...
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Leafsnail

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Re: Justifying Right-Wing Economics
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2011, 06:45:58 pm »

In what country...?
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G-Flex

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Re: Justifying Right-Wing Economics
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2011, 06:49:26 pm »

Keynesianism isn't working out too well...

One economic model, in your unprofessional opinion, under these circumstances, in certain countries, at this time, does not appear to be working adequately. That must mean this one discredited and non-empirical (wait, if it's non-empirical then how is anything that happens evidence for OR against it?) model must be right!
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Phmcw

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Re: Justifying Right-Wing Economics
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2011, 07:04:46 pm »

It's easy and come from the strength of right : well done, it promote innovation, Darwinism will guaranties that enterprise will collapse if they get too inefficient, private property will give invective to work, and it doesn't ask for an heavy and competent administration.
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« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 07:06:25 pm by Phmcw »
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nenjin

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Re: Justifying Right-Wing Economics
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2011, 07:22:50 pm »

The lack of administration and oversight is what leads to companies acting irrationally though.

"Rational market behavior" flies out the window when rational is defined as doing whatever earns you profit in spite of the consequences. The average person, I think, would define rational as something that earns you profit but doesn't set the entire system up for a collapse. Wall Street doesn't see it that way.

Everyone knew this, of course, before the financial collapse but it caused the issue to go front and center before the people who do not benefit directly from that kind of model. That's why I don't agree with the "naturalist" economic philosophy. Its strongest proponents have shown what the system will do when it operates as intended. You will have stability, and great success, for a while. But eventually the urge to act in a way that is beneficial to you, but detrimental to the system as a whole, becomes too strong. That's why we need oversight of markets, no matter how much the people that profit from it scream otherwise. They can't be trusted to act "rationally", because they have no need to.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 07:24:45 pm by nenjin »
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Max White

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Re: Justifying Right-Wing Economics
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2011, 07:25:07 pm »

The lack of administration and oversight is what leads to companies acting irrationally though.

"Rational market behavior" flies out the window when rational is defined as doing whatever earns you profit in spite of the consequences. The average person, I think, would define rational as something that earns you profit but doesn't set the entire system up for a collapse. Wall Street doesn't see it that way.

Everyone knew this, of course, before the financial collapse but it caused the issue to go front and center before the people who do not benefit directly from that kind of model. That's why I don't agree with the "naturalist" economic philosophy. Its strongest proponents have shown what the system will do when it operates as intended. You will have stability, and great success, for a while. But eventually the urge to act in a way that is beneficial to you, but detrimental to the system as a whole, becomes too strong. That's why we need oversight of markets, no matter how much the people that profit from it scream otherwise. They can't be trusted to act "rationally."

Well that dosn't help! We need people to think that 'survival of the fittest' works in a system where one single being can be millions of times the weight of another, and will continue to consume forever.

Blank Expression

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Re: Justifying Right-Wing Economics
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2011, 07:30:22 pm »

Keynesianism isn't working out too well...
In no sense is it performing more poorly than essentially laissez-faire economics did before it, and in most senses it is performing significantly better.
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Ninteen45

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Re: Justifying Right-Wing Economics
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2011, 07:32:47 pm »

Any help, guys?

My argument for such a thing is the fact that Fallout is an awesome game.
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Max White

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Re: Justifying Right-Wing Economics
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2011, 07:35:33 pm »

My argument for such a thing is the fact that Fallout is an awesome game.

Dear god this! Well, I'm convinced, and therefor voting for the liberal party next election (Fun fact: The Australian liberal party is the more right wing one).

redacted123

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« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2011, 07:37:25 pm »

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« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 03:08:53 pm by Stany »
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Nadaka

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Re: Justifying Right-Wing Economics
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2011, 07:57:47 pm »

You need to use exactly the same tactics the right wing uses to justify the policy. You need to use ad homonym attacks, you need to find a scapegoat, you need to lie, you need to be irrational. It works wonders.
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Sowelu

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Re: Justifying Right-Wing Economics
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2011, 08:02:43 pm »

When the government doesn't give handouts, nobody can take something they're not entitled to.  The farther 'left' you go, the bigger the handouts get, and the more people are compelled to cheat (the easier it gets, too).  The benefit to society might outweigh the losses, but there's a lot of righteous indignation there.  Freeloaders, huge welfare families...but that's probably not the way you want to go.

One big crux of a lot of arguments, once you drill down to it, is that socialism degrades people, corrupts them a bit, keeps them from living up to their true potential.  You want to focus on the kid who might have aspired to be a mechanic or a factory worker--maybe he didn't have an amazing future, but he could have taken care of his family, been a good man--but instead, he found that it was easier to rely on welfare and just plain not contribute.  This gets more true as you go further down the income ladder.  Crime is actually a luxury:  People can afford to turn to crime, drugs, that kind of thing if they know the state will take care of them.  In a more capitalist system, people are forced to take care of themselves, and drugs or crime will basically mean that they go hungry.

Counterpoints to prepare against: People who really DO need the support.  I've got a couple friends who are on government health care for example, and it's a constant struggle for them to navigate the paperwork just to literally survive.  It's a lot harder when you've got a brain injury, too, and if the system was any harder on them they'd be dead.  Your right-wing economic model has to distinguish between who needs help and who doesn't ("people who should work, SHOULD work, but just because we're fiscal conservatives doesn't mean we want to bring back poorhouses" or something).  How the hell the system is supposed to make that distinction I don't know, that's why I'm not a conservative, but there you go.

And of course, the other side of the argument is that where production and innovation are concerned, the things that a rich guy does to empower himself further are good for society as a whole.  Look at the railroad networks: Lots of companies competed very, VERY heavily to lay track fast, to have better trains, because it would make them rich.  As a result, the whole nation got a huge and efficient train system.  Dodge intellectual property if you can--that means avoiding drug development and early aviation circa WW1--or maybe just say that intellectual property is broken in ways that neither side is responsible for, and you want to fix them too (because if you can claim responsibility for medical developments without getting your ass nailed to the wall with patents and insane USA medical costs, you will do great).  Point out that capitalism means competing for contracts, which saves money for the government and reduces waste.  Your opponents might claim that capitalists are the ruling elite, but you can counter that someone who does the job better and cheaper can break right in; without a lassiez-faire system you start turning to fascism (where the government gets in bed with its favorite industries).

Also, JP Morgan.  He's your hero.  In capitalist America, banks bail out the government!  Anyway, any time people start whining about capitalist monopolies, ask them if they would have the products and services they currently enjoy if the monopoly never existed.  Microsoft?  They brought the computer industry to the masses.  Phone companies?  The government specifically allowed them monopolies in some areas--and in exchange, they developed the area.  Wal-Mart?  When they build a store out in the middle of nowhere, NEW towns spring up AROUND them.  They anchor communities, and lower prices for consumers so they can spend more money on non-essentials to improve their quality of life.  Factory farms are more efficient and produce less waste (see, capitalism is good for the environment).  Etc.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 08:05:20 pm by Sowelu »
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Justifying Right-Wing Economics
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2011, 08:13:46 pm »

Right wing economics is pretty damn easy to justify, as long as you can do a few things (difficulty depends on your debate structure, obviously):

First, identify the areas where right wing economics works well. It increases efficiency when a business and its employees don't have to deal with the time consuming and expensive process of dealing with assorted government agencies and regulations and petty tyrants and paper work by making them accountable only to those they serve, the consumer. It incentivives success and productivity, and has historically proved far better at distribution of even simple straightforward resources like food than left wing systems. In fact, focus on areas where its generally successful - interchangeable goods are paramount here.

Now, extrapolate from that a set of goals to which those strengths play, but to which your opponent would be reluctant to argue. Do we not want as many people fed as cheaply as possible? Do we not want a robust and efficient economy that simultaneously with proven durability? (Any business that collapses will very soon have others rushing in to fill the void) Essentially, don't we want a society based around what we need, rather than what other people want us to have?

Now, the most enjoyable part of any debate - marginalize your opponent, and don't let them marginalize you. Temper your arguments with concessions to the center, and try to bring generally accepted truths under your tent before your opponent can claim them. Find flaws classically attributed to your side, and slap them on your opponent. Corporate welfare, the thing that let these huge, risk taking, inefficient banks get to where they are today, is the purview of left wing economics, and its belief that stability and support is more important than the dynamism of true free enterprise! Cite examples of where it has failed - there are plenty of countries to choose from here, but keep a wide view so you can find the situation your opponent didn't prepare for, and then hammer it home. Don't just mention state-controlled Russia's food shortages, but things like that one European country (I forget which) that managed to provide enough welfare that the economy completely tanked (though it was pretty damn huge, and was coupled with a very high income tax). Spend at least as much time on the attack as on the defense, if not more - debates are won based on who seems less wrong. So make it about about them defending the flaws of their system and force them into having to attack your strengths. Deflect irrelavencies, like above mentioned copyright law, as quickly as possible. Sometimes it might even be worth it to bring it up first, and define certain areas you are not defending. Point out that the worse systems, like medical care, are systems where government interference means that free enterprise is nearly non-existant!

Best of all, if you're really just supposed to argue against left-wing economics, rather than FOR right wing, CHOOSE THE THIRD ROAD! Watch them flop around like a fish out of water. Even if you have to argue for right-wing, argue for an interpretation that isn't in line with what they expect, and you'll have quite a bit of support not because your arguments are good, but simply because they are at odds with what your opponents expected - they will often try to fumble the critiques they had planned before hand into an argument where they are not applicable, and this makes them look weak and your look strong.

Man, I miss debate team...
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 08:20:42 pm by GlyphGryph »
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Zrk2

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Re: Justifying Right-Wing Economics
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2011, 09:55:04 pm »

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=index

There are some well written articles on here in support of laissiez-faire capitalism.

Look at the moral underpinnings, how capitalism protects a person's right to property and prevents the tyranny of the majority.

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