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[Trollheiming]

I couldn't see any other way this could be done. Those hullmods were never supposed to be that easy to get to begin with.

Maybe. But if I want a hullmod, that's what I pay the technicians to install. It isn't tied to my personal skill any more than the systems on the Enterprise were tied to Picard grinding up his transporter skill and his phaser skill. He had technicians for that penny-ante bullshit.

The charm of this game was the head-on combination of player skill + strategy. Now it's limited arbitrarily by meaningless character skill numbers that have to be ground before the real game begins.

[Kaitol]

I was going to write a proper response to your posts. Until I noticed that your name actually included the word trolling. Bravo.

[Sonlirain]

I was going to write a proper response to your posts. Until I noticed that your name actually included the word trolling. Bravo.

Well he still has a point about the hullmods and skills.

Also in the news:
I think Condor should have at least one Medium Balistic slot replacing a small one just for the sake of one flak cannon since those dinky PD machineguns can't do anything to missiles unless they cone at an ideal angle for them to shoot at... and sometimes they get through anyway.

[Kaitol]

No, he really, REALLY doesn't. Look at the thread title. See that little RPG thing there? That's what the game is meant to be. Do you start off an RPG with all the best equipment and items? No, you don't. It has progression, and build up. You don't start off with all the nicest stuff and best skills to give you a massive advantage over the AI. You start at the bottom, and you have to earn them. Right now the campaign is bare-bones. That is not always going to be the case. Its going to be an actual game. And actual games need progression, otherwise they get boring. As it used to be, you could buy a tempest, slap a few hull-mods on it, and you were untouchable. I could kill nearly any fleet with just a single tempest. Except some of the bigger TT fleets. And that just doesn't fly.

Plus, its already been clearly stated pretty much everywhere, that you're going to have officers. Who will also have skills.

[Aklyon]

And also outposts. Theres even a mod, right now, compatible with the most recent version, that makes use of the currently unused in vanilla skills 'Industry' attribute, lets you use mining pod fighters to (slowly) mine by flying over asteroids (it takes up cargo space), being able to sell the ore for some credits (occasionally precious ore, which is worth 8k instead of the normal ore sell price), and then also being able to do more than just fly around and shoot pirates, like getting a storage station, a fleet hq, and then maybe ai fleets to mine for you if you have the skills to command more than your own fleet.

[Trollheiming]

No, he really, REALLY doesn't. Look at the thread title. See that little RPG thing there? That's what the game is meant to be. Do you start off an RPG with all the best equipment and items? No, you don't. It has progression, and build up. You don't start off with all the nicest stuff and best skills to give you a massive advantage over the AI. You start at the bottom, and you have to earn them. Right now the campaign is bare-bones. That is not always going to be the case. Its going to be an actual game. And actual games need progression, otherwise they get boring. As it used to be, you could buy a tempest, slap a few hull-mods on it, and you were untouchable. I could kill nearly any fleet with just a single tempest. Except some of the bigger TT fleets. And that just doesn't fly.

Plus, its already been clearly stated pretty much everywhere, that you're going to have officers. Who will also have skills.

The grind is getting longer without any real fun or strategy being added. That's the bottom line.

My character isn't personally installing these mods! He's just the damned pilot! You don't need to study automotive design in order to pimp your ride with gold hubcaps.

You like RPG games, do you? Well, there's a way to make the RPG-side of the game feel less like a tacked-on impediment to the other areas, and that's what you should rooting for, rather than acting like a butthurt fanboy.

[Flying Dice]

No, he really, REALLY doesn't. Look at the thread title. See that little RPG thing there? That's what the game is meant to be. Do you start off an RPG with all the best equipment and items? No, you don't. It has progression, and build up. You don't start off with all the nicest stuff and best skills to give you a massive advantage over the AI. You start at the bottom, and you have to earn them. Right now the campaign is bare-bones. That is not always going to be the case. Its going to be an actual game. And actual games need progression, otherwise they get boring. As it used to be, you could buy a tempest, slap a few hull-mods on it, and you were untouchable. I could kill nearly any fleet with just a single tempest. Except some of the bigger TT fleets. And that just doesn't fly.

Plus, its already been clearly stated pretty much everywhere, that you're going to have officers. Who will also have skills.

The grind is getting longer without any real fun or strategy being added. That's the bottom line.

My character isn't personally installing these mods! He's just the damned pilot! You don't need to study automotive design in order to pimp your ride with gold hubcaps.

You like RPG games, do you? Well, there's a way to make the RPG-side of the game feel less like a tacked-on impediment to the other areas, and that's what you should rooting for, rather than acting like a butthurt fanboy.

There was no progression in earlier builds. I could get from the start of a new game to flying around in a fully-equipped BC in perhaps 4-5 hours at most. Before the surrender bug was fixed, I could do it in ten minutes. That's not a game, that's a masturbatory aid. You also seem to have a rather odd view of what RPGs are, considering that you're insisting that linking arbitrary numbers to how well the character performs isn't the norm.

Wait. I seem to remember your username. Where did I see you last? Ah, yes, trolling people in one of the politics threads. 

[Trollheiming]

There was no progression in earlier builds. I could get from the start of a new game to flying around in a fully-equipped BC in perhaps 4-5 hours at most. Before the surrender bug was fixed, I could do it in ten minutes. That's not a game, that's a masturbatory aid. You also seem to have a rather odd view of what RPGs are, considering that you're insisting that linking arbitrary numbers to how well the character performs isn't the norm.

Wait. I seem to remember your username. Where did I see you last? Ah, yes, trolling people in one of the politics threads. 

The great thing about my username is that it sorts out the superficial types that couldn't process an argument anyway. I've given you my reasoning. There's a shiny pebble over there for ya.

Progression appears to be synonymous with "grind" in your vocabulary. I guess if you design Korean MMOs, that'll work.

Let's exclude obvious bugs. 4-5 hours is a reasonable time to achieve the endgame in a game that continues to be pretty one-dimensional right now. There's no story, no real campaign, no quests, one system, and you think the problem with short gameplay is that we don't grind enough? Yeah, right.

It's empty grind in place of free-form design. It adds nothing while impinging on strategy. And lastly, which I haven't covered yet, the skills seem to align with the mods so that wealth begets wealth. If I'm really good at gunnery, then I have access to a gunnery mod, which means that I can't shore up skill weakness with mods or vice versa. It's purely linear. You get the skills for an area, then you get the mods for the same area. YAWN!

[Flying Dice]

There was no progression in earlier builds. I could get from the start of a new game to flying around in a fully-equipped BC in perhaps 4-5 hours at most. Before the surrender bug was fixed, I could do it in ten minutes. That's not a game, that's a masturbatory aid. You also seem to have a rather odd view of what RPGs are, considering that you're insisting that linking arbitrary numbers to how well the character performs isn't the norm.

Wait. I seem to remember your username. Where did I see you last? Ah, yes, trolling people in one of the politics threads. 

The great thing about my username is that it sorts out the superficial types that couldn't process an argument anyway. I've given you my reasoning. There's a shiny pebble over there for ya.

Progression appears to be synonymous with "grind" in your vocabulary. I guess if you design Korean MMOs, that'll work.

Let's exclude obvious bugs. 4-5 hours is a reasonable time to achieve the endgame in a game that continues to be pretty one-dimensional right now. There's no story, no real campaign, no quests, one system, and you think the problem with short gameplay is that we don't grind enough? Yeah, right.

It's empty grind in place of free-form design. It adds nothing while impinging on strategy. And lastly, which I haven't covered yet, the skills seem to align with the mods so that wealth begets wealth. If I'm really good at gunnery, then I have access to a gunnery mod, which means that I can't shore up skill weakness with mods or vice versa. It's purely linear. You get the skills for an area, then you get the mods for the same area. YAWN!

You continue to ignore the point that Starfarer is very much a WiP. The progression isn't necessary at the moment, but if it is ever to be completed some sort of mechanic for that is going to have to be implemented at some point. Better to do so during a fairly early build in order to leave plenty of time for rebalancing and adjustments. It's far from an ideal system (I haven't had the time to play the new release yet, so I can't offer an accurate summary of the problems from my own perspective), but it's completely unproductive to bitch about there being too much grind for your taste and fighting with people for apparent reason beyond your own amusement.

In any case, here. From both your earlier posts and ones in this thread, I've seen nothing from you but comment that seem specifically intended to annoy people to no real purpose. Denial doesn't mean it isn't true. You have no argument to offer beyond "X, Y, and Z make it all grindy like Korean MMOs", ergo no detailed response is necessary. More colloquially, if you put shit in, you get shit out.

[inteuniso]

I'm going to have to agree with Flying Dice here. It's a work in progress, and he's designing an RPG to be based around a large game world.

Honestly, what's the problems with hull mods being tied to skills? Sure, in the Star Trek universe, Picard could have the nicest ship, but in this sector(backstory available here) everything is falling apart, and you might be the only guy with the technical expertise who knows how to put on that hull mod.

Again, this game is a work-in-progress. Seeing that it's taking queues from Mount and Blade (character creation screen in the newest version) and with discussing other commanders in your fleet in some of Alex's previous wall posts, it might be possible that they become much like the companions of Mount and Blade, with their own skills and giving you access to hull mods otherwise unavailable. Trollheiming, all I have to say is this: if you don't like the game, step away and give it another 6 months. The indie dev cycle is long and drawn out, as a few people working on a game this ambitious are going to take some time. If you still don't like it then, you got it for 10 bucks. You certainly invested at least 5 hours in it judging from your evaluation that 4-5 hours to endgame is acceptable, and you could invest 5 hours in the release version (when everything is nice and shiny.)

Going by the ever-popular 1 hour = 1 dollar, you've gotten your value out of it. Try to enjoy the game, don't nitpick .

[Flare]

My character isn't personally installing these mods! He's just the damned pilot! You don't need to study automotive design in order to pimp your ride with gold hubcaps.

This depends on the setting I think. All of the ships in the game are frigates and up. The player's character isn't a pilot but a captain that has to train and manage the crew. In such a setting, I think it's justified that there be a little build up before a person in-universe gets to know all the ins and outs of a star ship, particularly in doing some stuff that the ship might not be designed for a la the hull mods.

In any case, you kinda do need some instruction to pimp your car with hubcaps, much less a space worthy military vessel that has to meet the standards of war.

You like RPG games, do you? Well, there's a way to make the RPG-side of the game feel less like a tacked-on impediment to the other areas, and that's what you should rooting for, rather than acting like a butthurt fanboy.

I know the person who replied to you wasn't very nice about it, but I don't think calling him names back is all that necessary here.

Tacking on inteuniso said, I think he's mostly right about the RPG being designed around something else. Alex has said quite early in the beginning that the combat is the centre piece of the game, everything else is subservient to that and I think character skills being one of them fits quite well in that model. That being said, if the game is all about the combat and if players don't actually enjoy said combat, that might be a problem. On this, I think it mostly depends on how people react to the revised command system.

[Greiger]

I'm figuring once officers are in you can hire(or train) officers that have the proper skills to install those hull mods instead of having to do it yourself.

This has been called Mount & Blade in space.   In Mount & Blade I don't have to level tracking on my character, I can just travel around with some dude who's primary purpose is tracking and still get all the benefit. 

We just don't have officers in yet, so it seems a tad off at the moment.

P.S. So yea, basically what inteuniso said.

[Aklyon]

The revised command system (and in general, the ai improvements in combat) is quite good, I'd say. Theres still telling your ships to intercept something, or strike something, capture that point, etc, but also you can select a swath of them (including yourself to activate autopilot), point at an enemy, and watch them come crashing in on it like a swarm of angry bears (or bees if you have far, far too many talon interceptors like me and only one carrier ship to refit them).

Speaking of Talons, for their supposed fragility they certainly work well in giant swarms of like, 7 units of them, and hardly take many supplies to refit in-combat compared to something more reasonably sturdy, like broadsword wings.

[Tellemurius]

The revised command system (and in general, the ai improvements in combat) is quite good, I'd say. Theres still telling your ships to intercept something, or strike something, capture that point, etc, but also you can select a swath of them (including yourself to activate autopilot), point at an enemy, and watch them come crashing in on it like a swarm of angry bears (or bees if you have far, far too many talon interceptors like me and only one carrier ship to refit them).

Speaking of Talons, for their supposed fragility they certainly work well in giant swarms of like, 7 units of them, and hardly take many supplies to refit in-combat compared to something more reasonably sturdy, like broadsword wings.

or gladius, those things eat up all my hangar space but best ones got to be the wasps.

[Flying Dice]

Well, once the problem with Wasps not repairing outside of battles was fixed, anyhow. I remember leaving everything else in my fleet behind at base (with the independent base mod, obviously) just to get into small battles so that I could order them all to repair and retreat while I soloed the enemy ships.