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[DgnBiscuit]

The "dwarves only spot Sneaking enemies when right next to them" issue is due to be fixed at some point, if that helps.

Cool. Do you know if there's a bug for it or a scheduled task?

-D.B.

[sockless]

It's not really a bug, it's just not a feature that's been implemented.

[NW_Kohaku]

Guard dogs are great if you've got enough to spare killing them wantonly for the purposes of security.

Well, you do, really.

They cost nothing to feed, take no maintainance, and breed like rabbits.

If that doesn't work, keep in mind that wild animals will walk through the labyrinths, as well, and are also likely to visit your cage traps, and provide you with free replacement animals.

Labyrinths filled with traps aren't just for seigers - I actually find most of my ambushes this way.  I suddenly notice my dwarves rushing outside to go collect all the caged goblins and reset the stone traps. 

You only need dogs for the trap avoiders (which means kobolds with copper daggers, and dogs are still capable of this sort of thing), then you can go to the more advanced trap methods.

Basically, I don't really bother having a standing military until I'm in my third year or so, and am cavern exploring.

[DgnBiscuit]

Well, you do, really.

They cost nothing to feed, take no maintainance, and breed like rabbits.

If that doesn't work, keep in mind that wild animals will walk through the labyrinths, as well, and are also likely to visit your cage traps, and provide you with free replacement animals.

Labyrinths filled with traps aren't just for seigers - I actually find most of my ambushes this way.  I suddenly notice my dwarves rushing outside to go collect all the caged goblins and reset the stone traps. 

You only need dogs for the trap avoiders (which means kobolds with copper daggers, and dogs are still capable of this sort of thing), then you can go to the more advanced trap methods.

Basically, I don't really bother having a standing military until I'm in my third year or so, and am cavern exploring.

... again, kinda missing the point. I can build a computer out of matchsticks, that doesn't make a good idea, and it's still not fast enough to play dwarf fortress. Yeah, you can do all the things you've stated. Yes, we know the work. Trust me, I know the tricks, I've been playing since it went public. The question isn't whether the tricks work. The question is why you need to use them in the first place. Why to we need to find goblins by braille? What is it about a dozen goblins in crudely made iron armor that imparts such supernatural stealth that it allows them to pass withing two squares of a dwarf, guard or otherwise, without anyone recognizing them? The answer to these questions isn't "You can do it with war dogs." That is an answer. It's an answer to a question I didn't ask. That's an answer I knew before I posted. This, being the suggestions forum, not the advice forum, is for pointing out things that I think would improve the game (which Jake has already pointed out as something on the radar).

So, in the interest of finding out how popular this feature is, where would you (oh dwarf watchers) bump down to get this higher in the queue?

-D.B.

[Max White]

So remind me, why does your suggestion move beyond 'Why do dwarves not see goblins further away', something that is in the works, and we will be given sooner or later, towards 'We need a new position within our military for the specific goal of goblin spotting'

[DgnBiscuit]

"In the works" in Dwarf fortress terms could mean five years or more. The question is, if there's an overhaul of DF to put in apiaries, pottery, and new animals in the works right now (which is all very cool, but seems kinda like polish work) in the spirit of a more complete, complex and real world, why were dwarves left so short-sighted in the military overhaul? And when can we expect Toady to turn his attention back toward military things? And who else would sacrifice bee keeping for dwarves that could see farther than six inches in front of them?

-D.B.

[Max White]

That would justify dwarf site range being fixed faster, but it wouldn't justify a new position.

[DgnBiscuit]

Doesn't necessarily need to be a new position, merely an actual possibility. After all, improved sight range would allow you to station a dwarf up a tower and expect him to see nasties coming. However, from a programming standpoint, improved sight range introduces a whole host of performance issues. If every dwarf has the ability to see x squares out then you have to process the contents in those squares, if not every frame, probably every ten at least. That's a significant number of cycles considering the population in an embark area. If there was to be an actual task (not even a position, just a command to stand watch), you could cut down the number of units that you have to compute sight range for to a handful. It'd be a trivial addition (there are at least three different ways I can think of to do it off hand, all of them involve logic models already present in DF) and I think it'd add something to gameplay that isn't already there: The ability to actively protect your fort from invaders by trying to remove the ability that allows them to do the most damage (at the moment, improved sieges will probably make ambushes seem trivial, instead of the other way around).

-D.B.

[NW_Kohaku]

I'm pretty sure sight range is already in effect, since that's what causes things like Giant Cave Spiders to come running after your dwarves when they see them, (and your dwarves to run away) but not before. 

[DgnBiscuit]

That being the case, it would seem that the only thing missing is a calculation for a percentage chance to actually detect hidden stuff.

-D.B.

[NW_Kohaku]

I think that's what "observer" does... it just doesn't work, that's all.

[Max White]

So after all this, your not even suggesting a 'fortress watch' position, just something we all know is going in anyway?

[DgnBiscuit]

I'm suggesting that units that are supposed to be guarding should be actively looking for danger, instead of just passively letting it overtake them. Even if the observer trait worked the way that it's supposed to essentially any unit with enough training in the training room is as effective as any other, regardless of what they're currently engaged in.

To wit, shouldn't dwarves guarding the fortress, i.e. those assigned to some sort of "guard duty" military task, be better at detecting hidden units than your average off-duty spearman hauling stone to the stockpile?

And no, as far as I know there isn't anything like this going in anyway. At least not anything in the immediate future. So when improved sieges come into play are we going to have to worry about goblins who show up outside our fortress, build a ramp over the wall without actually being revealed, then suddenly have 80 goblins inside the walls with no prior warning because they're considered ambushers?

If you're still trying to wrap your head around what I'm getting at consider a different situation: You live in a neighborhood where you periodically are robbed at gunpoint in your own home if you open the door when you hear a knock. What you're telling me is that it's a bad idea to put in a peep-hole because you'll know if it's a robber when you open up and get robbed anyway. And that if I don't like getting robbed I can put a dog just inside the door so that before I get robbed (but after opening the door) the dog will let me know if the person is a robber, right before it gets stabbed. Your essentially defending the idea that dwarf fortress should be less realistic in terms of combat because there are marginally effective work-arounds, but you haven't actually said why this would be a bad idea.

-D.B.

[NW_Kohaku]

The way the observer skill is supposed to work is you gain experience towards it by trying to observe something, preferably something trying to sneak past you, the same way all the other skills gain points.

The thing is, it never really goes off, so only something tangentially related to guard duty actually gives it any experience right now.

Like with most skills, it doesn't really matter if you're a guard or not, if you have the skill, it works whenever it needs to work.

I suppose at some point, when observer actually does work, the best thing to do would be to get some sort of "awareness training" room, and have your hunters and your guards train with each other on evasion and detection.

[DgnBiscuit]

I suppose at some point, when observer actually does work, the best thing to do would be to get some sort of "awareness training" room, and have your hunters and your guards train with each other on evasion and detection.

Which would be cool, but I still believe that actually having people actively on duty trying to detect things at a distance differs from passively detecting things they way all dwarves would be doing anyway (with the way observer is supposed to work). The concept of watchmen (and guards, for that matter) is more than just guys there to beat off people who come in, they're actively looking for trouble that could be menacing the fort. I find that fundamentally different than your average dwarf noticing there are some nasties around. They're doing it as a job, they should be better at it because it's not something they're passively doing, it's something they're actively engaged in.

-D.B.